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Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Nov 11, 2003
    Honest question for folks in this camp: Since George Lucas was involved with a lot of TCW, from storylines to background lore, why is it OK for G-canon to supercede things but not for T-canon to do so? Or to put it another way, if TCW had been labeled G-canon from the start, would your objections be the same?

    If the objections would have been the same, why? Is the problem that for TCW Lucas was working collaboratively, and not acting as the sole director/writer? Is it that TCW was a TV show and not a movie? Is it that so many more sources were called into question? Is it something else I'm too thick to think of?

    I'm not trying to start a fight. I respect this point of view. And I don't know anything more than y'all do about what's coming for TCW. I'm genuinely curious is all.
    Random Comments likes this.
  2. Malachi108

    Malachi108 Jedi Master star 3

    Aug 8, 2009
    At this point I'm worried if Disney will leave us any canon at all... :oops:
  3. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 8, 2004
  4. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 15, 2011
    Why it's not okay for TCW to supercede C-canon without whim, and sometimes gleefully.
    1. Because, in my opinion, the replacement material (TCW) is generally of a lesser quality to the previously existing material (Republic comics, micro-series, Obsession etc).

    2. The CW era was filled basically completely before TCW came along, something which the Prequel era wasn't before the PT came along (filled, that is). Every month of the three years was planned out, every big battle documented. Basically there were no loose ends which demanded the announcement of TCW to clean them up, it was all about milking that era for toy and DVD sales. Basically because money outweighed artistic integrity, I object to the idea of TCW and its canon raping ways.

    3. TCW, again IMO, doesn't mesh well with the films, especially RotS. I don't care about having characters appear in TCW but not in AotC or RotS, but when they're as significant as Anakin's Padawan, that doesn't sit with me as something that can be waved off.

    As for whether my objections with the show's canon steamrolling would still exist if it were G-canon from the beginning: yes. Since the PT, I've somewhat lost faith in Lucas. The multimedia project was more enjoyable, internally cohesive, and of better quality than TCW television show, tie-in material excluded (I've never read that stuff, to be honest). I'll take what I'm more immersed in, related to, had fond memories with than what LFL or Lucas tells me is canon. Again, this is of course my own opinion.

    Anyways, I'm not really concerned about TCW's canon destruction so much since the announcement of the ST. Perhaps TCW was a starter to ensure we could stomach the EU destruction of the main: the Sequel Trilogy.
  5. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004

    Good question. In my mind I defer to T-Canon if only because of what we've been told, but it seems to be that more sources were called into question.

    Ando's placement, Ryloth's rotation, Mandalorian history, Piell, Galia, Sing, Ventress, Zabrak-Dathomiri, Maul, Anakin's Knighting, Barriss, Falleen-centric Black Sun, etc etc etc.

    No one piece of work has contradicted so much, and no one piece has caused so much grief. That it may be indicative of what is to come, just makes some of us worse, I suppose.

    As a Optimist-class fan, I like to make things cohesive after the fact. Now Clone Wars is finished, we can do that, at least :)
    CeiranHarmony likes this.
  6. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Master star 5

    May 10, 2004
    The point for me at least is not what canon level it is, since I treat all as canon and fitting somehow despite George to be known to see the EU as complimentary but not essential to his vision unlike how fans percieve and wish it to be. And I respect and love Georges opinion and influence, he is the godcreator of that universe after all (though his rivals Daiman and Waru claim that fame often :p). What most critique is about though is the lack of communication with fans as well as the lack of respect for sources that came before new stuff. Sometimes honesty and a direct approach towards fanconcerns would be better than empty marketing slogans and "all is fine" attitude. Often changes are just there for no real reason and do not contribute to the story at all in any way. One could have used a different species/world instead of changing an established one just as an example. People say it limits creativity to respect older sources and contributions to the universe. I think, if one truly is creative it enriches it more than limiting it. That is one of the main points fans loath continuity changes or damange. George himself is the only one who I am fine with if he alters the universe since it is his. All others including Filoni should be bound by the playgrounds rules. That said though, fans want continuity and a grand vision and George has been known to change his mind about things as well as to be busy and not the constant guiding force that directs the EU or gave it something to work with. The EU had free reign at some time, now is more limited and contradicted as a direct result of that lack of direction. That is what fans dislike. In part that also is the EUs own fault of straying too far or different interpretations of the movies and the EUs role by different people making it.
    The same critique is directed not just at George or his deputees who did TCW but also towards the EU editors and authors who more or less altered the deal while fans prayed it would not be altered any further. 8)
    With that said, I am all for an evolving universe where the best survives, a more coherent continuity and all that. But that requires more control over the EU than we got and definite words on what is out and what stays in, as well as rewrites/rereleases with changes to fit that new continuity. And while that is hardly going to happen to Star Wars, fans stick to either ALL-IN attitude of the grand continuity scheme, or the STAR WARS AND HISTORY approach of "all is accounts of what happened a long time ago from a certain point of view" with conflicting historians theories and the truth is in the middle somewhere. ;)
  7. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Master star 5

    Sep 2, 2012
    My problem is T-canon, and in turn TCW, seems to have been created for the express purpose of changing things established by C-canon, and I also agree with the response by JackG.
  8. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 8, 2004

    For my part, I'd say the tensions have probably stemmed from the somewhat artificiality of the distinction between T-Canon and C-Canon beyond the artistic medium. While for all practical purposes TCW has enjoyed the same privilege as G-Canon, George's involvement has mostly been limited to the film and particular arcs, which is not that removed from what the early days of the EU were like really, before it snowballed and became too large to him to exercise personal oversight of every new spin-off story.

    So, for me personally, it's simply because it strikes at that very modern debate of whether film should be seen as superior to written forms of storytelling, and whether film should automatically be prioritised just because it's film, and not through a simple choice of which ended up being the better story.

    Obviously, from a financial standpoint, I fully understand why LFL would want to give priority to the medium that costs more to produce, as animation is much more expensive than writing a book, so financially it makes sense to see that it is the form that enjoys more longevity. Of course, whether that is right or wrong tugs at a fundamental question that is much, much bigger than just Star Wars, but it's where I've always felt the tensions originate subconsciously.
  9. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Nov 21, 2000
    Well, there would have been cheaper ways to change the stuff in C-canon. Any single novel or source book could change C-canon if there's nobody stopping it (see Darth Bane vs. Jedi vs. Sith for just one example).

    T-canon was created to explain the fact that while it's not the movies, it's still not bound to what C-canon has written. I'm not sure if there ever was a point in separating it from the movie proper since I can't see Lucas separating it from what he did in the movies.

    They didn't set out to hurt C-canon. They didn't take it serious enough for that. I think the only stuff that Lucas wanted to "set right" that had been portrayed in EU were the Mandalorian stuff, since he obviously had some kind of idea about that that never found its way into the movies, and, based on Sam Witwer's interview, the portrayal of Order 66 as anything else than hidden evil mind conditioning (which will apparently be addressed in the bonus arc).
  10. Cronal

    Cronal Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 17, 2009
    On the surprise over lack of big scale fan outcry, really I think TCW had a good run. As I said before, if they made a couple of stuff for season 6 then they should be allowed to release that which they seem to be doing but really five seasons isn't a bad run for a cartoon series. There are plenty of other shows that don't make it past season 2. So, I think all in all the show had a decent run.... had its good episodes, had its bad episodes, had its continuity headaches and all. Though, I think what I will miss most are the designs of gadgets/vehicles/starships/weapons/uniforms etc etc.
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.
  11. Rew

    Rew Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Dec 22, 2008
    You, sir, have summarized in just a few paragraphs all my problems with TCW series ever since its inception that I've never been able to put into words.

    I honestly think this show should never have happened.
    Zeta1127 and GGrievous like this.
  12. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Jul 8, 1999
    jasonfry - It'd be as well to let it go, Zeta's too far out of range.
  13. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 6

    Oct 29, 2005
    To be honest, I've wondered how much "T-canon" actually meant as far as the canon system. My one question to the Canon panel was about the differences between the ships in the PT and in the CWAS, which Filoni was surprised about as he stated they were the same as far as he knew - and went on to reveal that Lucas had requested that the TF battleships no longer appear in the series. The Separatist Council, a crucial element in AOTC and ROTS, are essentially absent in the CWAS. So, Lucas' involvement pretty much made the concept of a different level of canon null and void for the series, especially since we can't separate what Lucas contributed from others in the series.

    About it being alright in the past, well, Lucas would (at least for PT) either ignore the EU or incorporate easter egg references. He'd also be involved with editing the EU, from the prohibition about the Clone Wars pre-AOTC, to saying Zahn couldn't use a clone of Obi-Wan in the Thrawn trilogy, to personally editing the novelization of ROTS. Then, for the CWAS, inexplicably he would take material from the EU and then completely twist it around, which was the truly head-scratching thing - if everything about an EU person or place was going to be changed, why not just create something original? In addition, they would contradict or mine the CWAS tie-in material that was coming out simultaneously. To be honest, the either run has been a head-scratcher for me.

    I suppose since we don't usually know specifically where individual usages arose from in the CWAS, we can't hold Lucas 100% accountable - but Filoni's story about presenting Lucas with the Mandalorian info was illuminating, to say the least (especially the reason why he used the one piece of EU that he did)
    Zeta1127 and Esg like this.
  14. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Master star 5

    Sep 2, 2012
    Out of range, how?
  15. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 2, 2000
    Some things we do know Lucas was responsible for.

    It was he who decided to make Ahsoka, Anakin's apprentice rather than some random Jedi which was the original plan. TBH I think there relationship was the best thing in the show that worked and worked well so I can't argue with that. He also signed off and keeping her alive rather than killing her off.

    We know that Mortis and the whole Force theme was his idea.

    We know that Cad Bane was his invention and yes I know he is a Duro before anyone starts.

    He also was the guy who bought Darth Maul back and pretty much had Anakin Skywalker re-written to be much more like the OT version rather than the PT version.

    Personally I think it was George's attempt to fix some of the problems of the PT. Maul was killed off too soon, Well he's back with a brother no less. Anakin is seen as a whiny psycho rather than a tragic hero, here he is being heroic and angry, father figure.

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 20, 2010

    My main issue with this whole affair has been pretty simple. Some of the major changes we've seen just haven't served much purpose beyond a change for the sake of it. Ryloth was a big one. The original planet environment was very unique. Why bother to change it at all? From what I can tell, even the TCW writers had planned on incorporating elements of the tidal locked nature of Ryloth into the story, only for George to just show up and give a big NOPE for no real reason that I can see. These kind of changes are arbitrary and silly, and they don't even serve much purpose for the story. Heck, on screen, you can barely tell there's a difference between what was established before, and what George says was true about Ryloth. And yet we are supposed to assume previous stories which use the tidal lock's nature to great affect are now no longer true? That strikes me as simply foolish and illogical.

    Or take Mandalore, you yourself have strived to blend the old and new concepts to the best of your ability, proving that New and Old Mandalorian cultures can coexist. Early press releases, however, suggest that George didn't want this to be true at all, and that the entire planet was going to be a wasteland. Again, why? If it wasn't for your excellent blend of old and new, we could've lost countless interesting stories for no real reason. That way of thinking, the idea that we'll write new stories with NO room for the old, is what I find annoying, as very often it is simply 'not' necessary.

    Fortunately, I am in the optimist camp who is working hard to come up with ways to make everything as cohesive as possible now (hence my "timeline" thread, and the main "L-Canon" thread), but that's just for the sake of a few members here in lit. We're fans and what we say is little more than fanon mixed with some fun and common sense. I am neither you, nor Pablo, nor Mr. Chee, so I have no idea how much material will survive the purge when all is said and done. That ambiguity is what has bothered me for these past few years.

    Having said that, I hope that the end of this show means we'll start seeing something cohesive very soon. I do believe most stuff can still fit together with a few minor exceptions at the end of the day.
    Mia Mesharad and Zeta1127 like this.
  17. Esg

    Esg Jedi Knight star 4

    Sep 2, 2012
    I'm a pessimist seeing how the last arc ended with completely crapping over Evasive Action. Not to mention the last season was filler until the Maul Arc

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 20, 2010
    Yes, but at least the fact that only 1-3 arcs may remain means we mostly know what we have left to retcon.
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    I actually don't have an issue with Anakin having a Padawan. I understand the in-universe reasoning and I actually liked Ahsoka's character the first two seasons.

    What I didn't like was how her character developed once she became an obvious Filoni favorite. She could do no wrong, in universe or out. And then Filoni fought to keep her alive when it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to kill her off, given that she isn't mentioned in ROTS. Why Lucas signed off on keeping her alive when he originally said to kill her off, I don't know, but he should have held his ground.

    Maul: that was ridiculous, but no, I'm not blaming Filoni for that, that was Lucas. It's not the first time that a creator has regretted killing off a character and then brought the character back in some absurd manner, and my response is the same regardless of the franchise: tough ****. Your character died. Resurrection is stupid.

    Mortis: don't even get me started, but yes, I know that was Lucas, just as the asinine "Chosen One" concept in the prequels belonged to Lucas.
    Esg likes this.
  20. fett 4

    fett 4 Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 2, 2000
  21. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 8, 2004
    But do you know whether he contradicts the EU?
    Cronal, Grey1, General_Un-Co and 2 others like this.
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    That's probably true, but that also isn't saying much. Zahn is another who likes to take his favorite characters and ensure that everyone in universe thinks they are the Universe's Gift to Everyone and that all readers better not dare think otherwise. In addition to Mara, see: Thrawn.
    fett 4 and CT-867-5309 like this.
  23. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 12, 2003
  24. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Nov 6, 2005
  25. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Jun 29, 2003
    We need an exorcist in here ASAP.