Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Sifo-Dyas was manipulated by Darth Plagueis into placing the clone order. What about that does not make sense?

    And in the process the whole point of the clones' genetic modification and conditioning as explained in AOTC will be missed.
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    It makes sense, but it was poorly done.

    "Hey man, the galaxy's kind of a screwed up place, am I right? Also, clone armies are pretty awesome. Oh, and Kamino is a place. A....clone-y place. Anyway, consider yourself Inceptioned. Hey, are they serving cocktails over there?"
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I believe the term is "incepted". :p

    Also, he didn't give the name of Kamino. The dark side stopped him.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, May 1, 2013
  4. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    It was 4ABY right after Endor
  5. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    This is one of the most accurate descriptions of this scene... ever.

    (Seriously, why is it the Darth Plagueis novel so readily lends itself to satire?:p)
    Last edited by Barriss_Coffee, May 1, 2013
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  6. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Probably because so much is crammed into it. I'm willing to cut Luceno a bit of slack there; the Sifo-Dyas thing was only the 372nd plotline he had to establish.
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  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I loved the book, but we do need a one-sentence version:

    People around whom it is not safe to get drunk, GFFA version.
  8. Grand Admiral Crumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2013
    star 1
    Oh, sorry. I never finished that game. I just know it starts right after Yavin IV. 4 ABY makes more sense for Eclipse to start showing up now. I still don't like the Urai Fen character, doesn't age, and Force sensitive? Why aren't there more of these hanging around?
  9. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Why did they then give us stories like Cut's or Slick's, or even Umbara, episodes that point with a giant, flashing neon arrow about the individual nature of the clones? How they can disobey orders, or even desert if they so choose? Why make Rex such a large part of those arcs if in the end they are meant to be meaningless to his character?

    It just seems very odd for them to spend that amount of time setting up Rex's POV just to have them throw a switch and pretend that those stories didn't matter when the order comes down.

    As you say we may never know for sure what was intended for Rex, but a lot of the ground work was already in place.
  10. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    They might be all dead
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Oh, right, well it's been a while since I've read it. Is the dark side a great wingman or what?
  12. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    You could even say it's a great Darkwing man.
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  13. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Why is Trench coming back? Why not Mar Tuuk, the original awesome Seppy Admiral?
  14. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    This isn't the Glove of Darth Vader thread. :p
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  15. Mange Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2003
    star 4
    Though some of the decisions have not been that great (Ryloth, for example) hat's one of the things I'm excited about.
    Dr. Steve Brule likes this.
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    I'm not too crazy about the apparent decision to make Order 66 the result of a specific sleeper command implanted in clones' minds or whatever. I always thought it was more chilling to think that these thinking, feeling human soldiers could nevertheless be inculcated from birth with such a sense of obedience to authority and hierarchical command that they'd almost universally agree to kill their superior officers if ordered to by an even greater superior.

    TCW was actually doing a great job of making such a thing even more plausible by showing the rise of anti-Jedi sentiment among some segments of the Republic and throwing General Krell into the mix as a way of introducing a kernel of doubt into the clone ranks. If they're really going the Manchurian Candidate route then all of that was pretty pointless.
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  17. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    How can one thing manage to dumb down the entire franchise so blatantly including your own show? How do the writers do this?
    Last edited by Esg, May 2, 2013
  18. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    Nov 21, 2000
    star 4
    Oh, they could very well have made Rex decide to go against Republic orders and go rogue. Especially after Rex finds out that he has an overwrite switch that he never wants to hear the code word for. But the most probably version would have been that while there's conditioning, "love" or brains can overcome it, so people like Rex and Fives can fight against the conditioning. See, all of this is guesswork which will likely be over by the time the DVDs are released, but I don't get the feeling that they are planning for a strictly Republic Handbook of Assorted Orders explanation. And they won't go out of their way to keep the Traviss interpretation in, especially not if Lucas' version is fundamentally different. TCW was Lucas-influenced enough that they actually tried to show and explain a few things which had so much freedom for interpretation in the movies that EU naturally tried to find their own explanation.

    As for the Sifo-Dyas bit not making sense: It never made sense to introduce an offscreen Jedi and give him offscreen incentive and offscreen money to build the clone army. It made all kind of sense for Sidious to order it himself and give it to the Jedi, maybe even under a comparatively elaborate plot construction in which the Jedi think that they snatched the army away from the evil guy, and that the evil guy only played Jedi because the Kaminoans wouldn't have build an army for anyone except the most noble people in the universe. Now, we have amoral Kaminoans who only look at the size of your pocketbook and Yoda who fetches an army because, well, you know, because. Giving explanations like Palpatine playing Plagueis playing Sifo-Dyas giving blood for Grievous does work, of course, but I don't think it's a smooth solution to a problem that was extremely non-smooth.
  19. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

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    New from Sienar Fleet Systems, the starfighter of your dreams: The TIE Inceptor!

    Luke: "What's a duck?"
    Obi-Wan: "Never mind."
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    From what little we've known of it so far, it hasn't been fundamentally different. Supposedly he said the order wasn't pre-programmed the same way Luceno did. The problem is that fanboys like Filoni have their own version. If TCW changes things I suspect it'll really be Filoni's take on things with Lucas not interfering for whatever reason ( not having been very clear about the order with the writers, not really giving a crap, whatever ).

    So in other words, Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones makes total sense, but we don't like anything that's offscreen, so it never made sense to disappoint us?

    Kind of hard to stay in business that way under normal circumstances.

    The "blood for Grievous" thing isn't a necessary part of any explanation; it explains nothing and now seems kind of pointless in light of Plagueis' claim that Force-sensitivity cannot be granted in that way. It also fails to completely make sense in context with AOTC, because if Sifo-Dyas' body had been kept by Dooku one would think that the Jedi would not have been so certain of his fate or its timing.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, May 2, 2013
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  21. Trip Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    so obviously I agree wholeheartedly that a hypnotic Order 66 is an awful, awful idea... but it's really not that surprising given how the clones are depicted in the show. Like, unless I missed stuff that indicated otherwise (I've only seen a dozen or so episodes) the show-clones (heh) are basically depicted as cognitively normal people, right? Which means that there's really no way that Order 66 can be the same thing it is in the movie/EU continuity and make any sense, since that depended entirely on clones being incapable even of conceiving of disobeying an order, let alone actually doing so. So... I guess at least the show's internally consistent?

    (also hahah #eu i told you guys something like this was gonna happen)
    Last edited by Trip, May 2, 2013
  22. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    There's nothing inherently unrealistic about cognitively normal soldiers obeying morally odious orders. I guess it's a bit of an extreme example if those orders involve killing someone who's a fellow soldier and superior in the same military organization, but throw in some growing anti-Jedi hysteria and Krell-induced paranoia and you're all good as far as I'm concerned.

    edit: And let's not forget that for the most part clones aren't quite cognitively normal. They are bred to be more docile and prone to following orders. Just because that doesn't make them act like inhuman robots doesn't mean the tendencies aren't ultimately still there.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, May 2, 2013
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  23. Trip Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    er, yeah, but the point I'm making is that the clones as depicted in "The Clone Wars" aren't bred to be more docile and prone to following orders-- that's how they are in the 'main' continuity, but that's not how they're depicted in the show. In TCW they act like normal people.

    Like, if original-clones were in that episode where they kill the besalisk jedi they... wouldn't've killed the besalisk jedi. They would've followed his orders even if it meant every single one of them dying; they wouldn't even have expressed misgivings about it. Which means it's pretty much impossible for Order 66 to go down like it originally did, since in TCW-land there's no guarantee that every clone will follow the order-- in fact there's no way they all would, given the close relationships many of them have with the Jedi they serve under.
    Last edited by Trip, May 2, 2013
  24. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    I don't know that I agree. I can see what you're saying, but I think their coming across more "normal" in the show is less a matter of deliberate characterization than it is simplistic writing. They come across like regular soldiers because the average TCW viewer wouldn't look for or understand something more nuanced.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, May 2, 2013
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Haven't a tendency to follow orders doesn't mean you'll follow every order no matter what. It just means you're more likely to do it than someone who wan't bred that way.

    Palpatine's plan didn't rely on the clones being unthinking, unfeeling automatons who'd follow his orders no matter what. He just gave them an extra push in that direction via genetic tampering and then engineered galactic events to create an atmosphere where even normal soldiers might follow a kill-all-Jedi-generals order.

    That is, until TCW undoes that interpretation of evets.
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