Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. ShanOffirin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2006
    star 1
    @Zeta1127 why do you think I reverted back to old canon - though I ignore Karen Traviss novels as well. I prefer my clones not being too lovey dovey with Jedi (not to mention she was extremely biased against Jedi in LOTF).

    As to ignoring Clone Wars completely and reverting to old time line - the reasons are down to these:

    Maul's return - how exactly? no answer from Keeper of the Holocron Mr. Leland Chee about how and why he managed to get off Naboo and into the Outer Rim. I mean seriously, how could Palpatine not know his apprentice is still alive, HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD ALIVE!!
    Ventress and Grievous (WTF? - such losers - original series and the comics (and novels) made them even deadlier, not cowards and morons)
    tactical droids/Tuuk/Lok Durd/Trench (such idiots)
    too many battles too many clone casualties still a large army
    Mandalore (who's bright idea to include them?)
    Naboo's latest queen (who is she? where'd she come from? where's poor Jamillia?)
    Jar Jar being made stupid again (for God's sakes he's like 30)
    Trade Federation/Techno Union/Banking Clan senators (excuse me? how? - don't they have Corellia, TaggeCo and about a dozen other loyalists that could have senators instead - oh wait, the whole traitors amongst the senate arc, which was stupid in itself)
    Pong Krell, Halsey, Ahsoka Tano and Nahdar Vebb - nice idea, but not really well thought out? (And I always thought Roonans had three names like "Edcel Bar Gane")
    Changing Jedi's death - Even Piell and Adi Gallia - thank God the series ended before Oppo Rancisis found himself dead before Saleucami.
    Changing Jedi anyway - it was nice to see Eeth Koth again but should've used him instead of Piell - switch their first appearances - Piell captured by Grievous/Koth held on Lola Sayu
    Extra senators - liked Kin Robb and Riyo Chuchi (but why change Papanoida's species?) - Jakker-Sun and Stonk (where's the established Tendau Bendon?), Dantum Roohd & Zinn Paulness (lame), Aang (established Roonan senator is Edcel Bar Gane - hello!), Christo (again, established Tundra Dowmeia is absent) and don't start on the Separatist Senate (if it existed, it would've appeared in ROTS).
    Making the Jedi and the Senate, particularly Amidala, look too stupid for their own good (though where smarter in the films).

    And finally, the one that finally set it off:

    BARRISS OFFEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    They ruined my favourite character!
    Last edited by ShanOffirin, Nov 26, 2013
  2. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Oh, I have basically reverted to the old canon too, save the few interesting new things that could easily exist in the old timeline without throwing it out, i.e. the Subjugator-class heavy cruiser and the Haven-class medical station. Maul's "return" guaranteed I was probably never going to accept TCW, even if I had been interested in watching the show in the first place, though I was already up in arms over the Tantive IV business, all of the other little contradictions with RotS and its novelization, and Ahsoka Tano's existence.
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.
  3. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    I wrote up a huge post about how I still enjoy parts and episodes of TCW despite how frustratingly bad it can be at times, looked it over, and decided that it was too harsh and confrontational. Instead, I'm just going to say that I understand people's frustrations with the series, but chucking the entire thing means you miss out on some pretty good stories and quality work by some talented artists and animators. I'm willing to take the lumps to get to the good stuff because I want to find good, new Star Wars material instead of obsessively hoarding the old stuff.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That's pretty close to my view. Even if some episodes are rather less than great, there is entertaining stuff in TCW and its tie-in material.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I take what I can use and leave the rest. And I enjoyed the show for quite awhile. I'd say it started going downhill in season 3, and by the time season 5 rolled around...let's just say the cancellation was no surprise, it's like they weren't even trying to make good episodes anymore.
    fett 4 and spicer like this.
  6. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    I like to thank Dave for killing my interest in Star Wars.
  7. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
  8. Lord Ctessor Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Aren't high ranking clones trained and programmed to think more independently and because of that it's more likely to obey Order 66?
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Palpatine's explanation in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, was that the disobedient clones had just spent too much time with the Jedi, and become "the sum of their experiences".
  10. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    And you are? ;)
  11. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    And you are? ;)
  12. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    He is, despite his name, the optimist of this conversation.

    Nothing in this world makes sense anymore.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Nov 28, 2013
    Lazy Storm Trooper and Gamiel like this.
  13. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
  14. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Of course, that's why we're apparently receiving TCW 2.0 next year.

    Show Spoiler

    [IMG]
    Last edited by GGrievous, Nov 29, 2013
  15. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Now if only we could get Filoni to do a series that takes place either 24ABY or 31 ABY, we can get a win/win scenario.
  16. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'd sacrifice the NJO at the altar of Filoni. I sort of suspect that won't be necessary.
  17. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Fixed.
  18. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    While the Science Fiction potential of what you say would certainly have been an interesting one shot story imo, how many times could that story be examined or told?

    If disobedience isn't possible and they can't think beyond their programming is there any real reason to tell stories about different clone troopers?
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think there's a way to balance the ability to think creatively, and having different personalities, with programmed obedience to certain chains of command. It's not easy but I think a good writer can pull it off.
  20. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    "Go take that hill, clone!" All clones will do their best to follow that order, but some will make a frontal attack, some will decide to bombard it with artillery first, others will sneak up rough terrain in the night.
    "The Jedi have turned on the Republic and must be eliminated!" Clones will do their best to follow that order, but some will simply shoot them, some will use artillery, others will wait until they are asleep and garrote them.
    Creativity and independent personalities for the clones, while still being obedient to the chain of command.
  21. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    I recall THE CESTUS DECEPTION having a little bit of it, and clone troopers were treated as a bit more...normal...for lack of a better work, and Traviss had the ARC of Cestus Deception when she was hired to do RC.

    One thing I do think people forget is that the whole point of Republic Commandos is that they were trained to be more normalized. Instead of sleep teaching and rote drills they had one-on-one specialized training with Mandalorians, Corellians, and even aliens. Traviss even has a bit where two of the training Sergeants are brought back in order to train the ranks of the Covert Ops troopers.

    The RC's had a dim view of the ARC's because they were closer to the line troopers in that they had less socialization and were considered, by the RC's, to not be as friendly as the tight internal four man squads.

    Traviss' line troopers don't show as much of the socialization until they're around people. Even after having been assigned a non-combat job, one trooper who they train up after he gets artificial limbs, is seen as not being wise in the ways of the world and the Commandos take him under their wing.

    And when they have to work with regular troopers the RC's are surprised that the line troopers aren't as chatty or friendly (and some are antagonistic, such as the group who snub them because the RC's use Mando words and they've fought Mandalorians who were working for the Banking Clans). The RC's are seen as loose cannons, and seem to have the most personality, even in Traviss' books.

    In other books and comics it seems to be a spectrum, with named clones who have closer ties to their commanders seeming more talkative and socialized, while other troopers are just there...but how much of that is just dictates of the plot and redshirt syndrome? Who knows?
    Robimus and Iron_lord like this.
  22. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Well, how many times can the story "Guess what, clones are ordinary people!" be told? It's not about telling that same story over and over -- again, a point Traviss missed -- but about telling it well once or twice in different variations and letting it inform the rest of the stories that aren't based around it. You can have stories about the various ways Jedi respond to this tragic reality. You can have stories about how the public and Senate respond.

    But you can also have Clone Wars stories that aren't about the clones. You can have stories that are about other things, other people, and we should be getting that to a much greater extent than we have. Frankly, if clones couldn't just be turned into ordinary run-of-the-mill blokes as supporting characters, it might provoke the authors to create some actual supporting characters who aren't clones -- Republic regulars, scoundrels, whatever. Anything but the mass of blandness that is the current "all Jedi and clones, all the time" Clone Wars.
  23. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    Did we ever get any stories about the former Judicial forces that were folded into the Republic's new army? Was it Cestus Deception that has the regular soldiers in it as well as the clone troopers?

    Besides the naval commanders it seems like we never really got non-clone commanders or soldiers.

    Groups like the Antarian and Kilian Rangers are mentioned in passing...mostly as parts of Altis' group in 501st, but it would have been nice to see them in action during the war.

    Considering that smugglers and Star Wars go hand in hand, it would have been great to see a story about weapons smugglers or war profiteering‎. You're given the sense that these sorts of things happened, but no author ever really told those stories.
  24. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Cestus had a local militia involved. Jedi Trial had the ex-Judicials.
  25. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Why not a two plot story: one part of it is about the smugglers the other about the people whose job is to stop them
    Barriss_Coffee likes this.