Lit A/V Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Commandos are genetically the same as standard infantry troopers, it's the advanced commando training that sets them apart. Alpha-class ARCs are essentially baseline Jango with only their growth accelerated, while Null-class ARCs are enhanced Jango.

Keep in mind that Attack of the Clones didn't say that, a specific character did; the statement is an in-universe one that should be taken under the assumption that this person holds their own opinions, biases, and in Lama Su's case, his own financial agenda.

They're genetically modified to have a predisposition for following orders. However, as Dark Lord aptly puts it, everyone is the sum of their experiences. Clones can grow beyond that through outside influence, whether from their Jedi generals, Cuy'val Dar trainers, even from certain military postings that expose them to the common people on a daily basis. Hell, some troopers just read. All of these can have a significant effect on the personality of the clones, and lead them to respond differently to these different command situations.

 

I had always seen Order 66 nestled within the rest of the legal contingency orders as a beautiful example of Palpatine's brilliance. Then TCW came along and I became really fond of the relationships between a lot of the Clones and their Jedi Generals, as well is the independence and individuality the series showed. I knew about the few defecting clones from various stories before the series but once the series began exploring it as a more widespread possibility (Like in the Umbaran arc) I began to feel like the whole legal contingency plan and reliance on obedience wouldn't be enough. I know others were disappointed in TCW's portrayal of this widespread potential for disobedience, but I thought it was quite refreshing - despite the obvious questions it raised about Order 66.

When the Bonus Content clip came out last year, I had a feeling it would be a manchurian candidate thing to resolve the issue - which made feel conflicted. I was happy that if this was the case, they were essentially confirming my feelings about the widespread potential disobedience among the clones. But, I was sad that this might mean all of their character development would mean nothing when Order 66 came down since they basically wouldn't have free will at that point.

With the announcement of this arc and the synopses that came with it, I see the potential to reconcile both of those feelings I had (and maybe even allow Fives - possibly Rex too - to defect and get out of there so their character dev. stays intact when the Order comes down) as well as giving us a plausible reasoning to allow both ideas about Order 66 (legal contingency that the clones just follow + genetic programming to make sure they do). I like the idea of keeping the legal contingency orders 1-150 canon and just making this a (secret) contingency for that contingency.

 

I'm going to assume the genetic modification is, just like in the real world, a predisposition. It's a dominant trait that surfaces in most cases (99.9999%, with perhaps 1 in 100,000 who disobeys), but once in a blue moon it either becomes recessive and does not surface (literal defect), or it is counteracted by clones that have become 'too' independent because of their experience (clone who chooses willingly to disobey). In essence, a clone that's smart enough and wise enough will disobey the order even when his genes compel him to (as genes and environment both play a factor in who we really are), as to most individuals Order 66 would 'not' make sense. However, the programming, combined with already existing propaganda, convinced all but a handful of clones to execute the order without question.

In short, the genetic coding is there. Its effects are real and it works in the great majority of cases. But clones with enough experience could be deprogrammed not to follow it, while some simply were never properly programmed at all (and thus retained free will), choosing of their own volition to ignore the order. Inversely, I bet there were also clones who had defective programming, but 'did' follow the rule... simply because they were too detached from the Jedi to not swallow the propaganda.

In short, all possibilities are valid. And those outside of the grand plan never knew the difference.

Also, every clone read and memorized the 150 contingency orders (It's impossible for there to be an order 66 if it didn't exist in a list of written contingencies of some kind), irregardless of if they knew they were genetically predisposed to follow them, and their consequences. To an outsider, Order 65 is no less valid than 66, all are a "Just in case" type order.

 

Well, given that the Traviss mold which dominated for so long was, "they have free will but of course utterly and completely hate those evil Nazi Jedi so much they'll gladly kill them all at a moment's notice and laugh about it and not feel any bad at all," it's basically the same thing.

 

I am not certain what you mean. Can you explain it to me?

 

Why do either of those opinions have to be the right one. I much preferred the Clones being loyal soldiers, that were simply following orders. True, they were close with the Jedi, but they were also raised to be loyal to the Republic. Order 66 said the Jedi were traitors and the clones would have had no reason to doubt its authenticity. I feel like sayjng they were genetically engineered cheapens the whole scene. Just like Travis's portrayal did.

 

But doesn't the ROTS novelization contradict that? That is worked simply because it was a passion-free, orders-following action (which made me a bit disgruntled at Traviss' Bacara quote about feeling betrayed by Mundi)?

 

Traviss ignoring established canon and characterization to rewrite things so they follow her own narrow interpretation and prejudices, you say?

 

There are a variety of conflicting ideas surrounding the order, with the Revenge of the Sith novel indicating dispassionate execution, while Dark Lord and Republic Commando indicate more human responses that lead to the deviation between clones who are willing and unwilling to carry out the order. Different sources seem to waver between which interpretation they individually favor. Ultimately, it's most likely a combination between the ideas that occurred, with some choosing to follow the order out of that calm sense of duty, while others allowed their emotions to seep into their actions.

Kind of like your last post, where you came up with a completely opposite-to-canon scenario that never actually happened because of your own prejudice and narrow interpretation?

No clone in any of Traviss' Republic Commando novels hates the Jedi until after Order 66 comes down and the Jedi are believed to be traitors. Even then, the only clones from the main group of protagonists who develop feelings of hate toward the Jedi do so due to a moment of grieving anger and, later, PTSD-induced irrationality. There are also clones present who deserted because they disagreed with Order 66, as well as one who rescued his Jedi General from the initial order and the early stages of the Purge.

 

I'm gonna let thoughts fly with this clone thing. HUGE wall of text incoming. Feel free to ignore, because I'm pretty sure I've said it all before.

lolwut?

Fives discovered it by going very deeply into Tup's mind? Like, telepathically?

Do I even want to know?

Personally, I don't see this as particularly mysterious. Since Sidious controlled their entire creation, presumably he (through Dooku or fake Syfo-Dias or whoever) could have the Kaminoans put it in. I don't see any problem with this.

I know this is the continuity thread, but at this point I, personally, don't care. I'm just looking at TCW and the movies, and I'm willing to throw anything out.

For me, the Jedi could never be aware of Order 66 in any way for it to pass suspension of disbelief.

Why would the Jedi ever go along with it? Who would ever go along with an order not just officially sanctioning, BUT DEMANDING, the entire eradication of their entire culture, over one single action (by, what, four individuals as it turned out?), that could not be rescinded for any reason, with no exceptions? Insane. Completely insane.

And no, "oh the clones get to kill the chancellor too so that makes sense" does not fly. At all.

I also think it works better for the Order to be Palpatine's secret (perhaps Dooku knew, too, whatever). I just don't like the idea of Order 66 being some official thing at all. The fewer that know, the better.

Aside from Order 66 (I'm not sure if what you're saying applies to anything but Order 66. If it doesn't, then the following isn't in response to this, it's just my view of the subject), the idea that the clones are anything even close to super obedient is just shot to hell in TCW. They're the opposite of that in TCW. They desert, they turn traitor, they flat out disobey direct orders because a battle is difficult, they disobey direct orders to go on their own mission, they refuse to execute an insubordinate trooper, and even the one (the only one, really) that is supposed to be the most obedient of all, Dogma, shoots his Jedi General in the back because the Jedi General was trolling him indirectly.

The "dangers of blindly obedient soldiers" idea just doesn't fly in TCW, because they've been shown to be anything but blindly obedient. They were whining on Umbara because they had to march for a long time. (I chalk that up to poor writing) At no point in the show's history have they been shown to be the "Yes sir! Right away!" clones we see in AOTC. Often times when they obey, they do so begrudgingly, with plenty of doubt and hesitation.

So the programming utterly failed with the entire 501st as seen in the Umbara arc, or at the very least the entirety of Torrent Company? (which never comes up in the show) According to EU numbers a company is 144 troopers. That's a lot of failures.

And the "official paper" and secret command both failed with Ion Team from Dark Lord? And every other example of disobedience from non-ARC troopers? (who apparently didn't get the genetic docility/obedience)

This is on top of the obedience programming being absolutely non-existent in TCW. Basically every single clone in TCW, except maybe Dogma who later goes off and shoots his General in the back because he was mad, shows no sign of obedience programming.

Audiences originally perceived this huge mess? I don't think so.

Maybe an extremely small number of people know about the secret genetic programming thing, but...neither the Jedi or anyone friendly to the Jedi (like Bail and Padme) could know about the official Contingency Order. They just can't. That has to be super secret, or better, non-existent.

But some people are telling me that EVERYONE (relevant) apparently knows about the official Order 66, which is totally official and thousands of Jedi are cool going into battle knowing the clones they're fighting with can, no, MUST shoot them in the back instantly upon hearing three words from the Chancellor because a few Jedi have apparently started a rebellion, according to the Chancellor. No authentication required. No evidence required. NO ONE gets a trial, all Jedi everywhere are to be immediately executed without exception, even the younglings and everyone in the Temple. SOUNDS REASONABLE, WE'VE GOT A WAR TO FIGHT! GOOOOOOOOO JEDI!

That would be unbelievably stupid.

Everyone knows, and everyone knows they will have no impact on anyone making decisions on TCW, which you also know.

So really, they're completely irrelevant.

I'm repeating myself, but TCW blasted this cautionary tale into oblivion from the start. That tale could never come across in TCW with the way the clones were portrayed.

The only scenario in which this is relevant is if the clones are explicitly not blindly obedient and instead decide which orders to follow. If they are blindly obedient, they don't need valid reasons.

And should those two examples really make much of a difference? I mean, if you're this free thinking being and you trust your Jedi General and know he has nothing to do with the rebellion because you've been with him the whole time, does Barriss and Pong make a difference? I mean, if a clone doesn't trust his General because he always seemed shady or whatever, then yeah I guess those two examples (and maybe more, I know TCW can't show everything) would be enough to convince you to obey the order to execute a guy you never trusted anyway. But how many Jedi were really like Pong Krell? Not many, certainly not the many examples we KNOW were not like that, like Aayla Secura. I'd say most of the Jedi were, you know, Jedi. Kind and compassionate, the ones that gave many clones their names and treated them relatively well for, you know, slave soldiers.

Does it really defeat the entire concept? I mean, even without Order 66 as a legal deal Palpatine still used official and legal (not really, cuz I'm pretty sure it's not legal for the Supreme Chancellor to command a war against the Republic) means to take power and lead the Jedi to their doom.

If you're just using hyperbole it's cool, no need to even respond, I won't hold that against you.

Yeah, it's the combination that doesn't work. Pick one or the other instead of mashing together every idea anyone has ever had about the clones and how they work.

Either take away their free will so it doesn't have to be explained (which for me, accomplishes the cautionary tale about breeding an army of blindly obedient soldiers), or let them keep their free will and explain it without the one time cop out that doesn't explain the reality of before and after anyway.

Or, what Lama Su is just literally true.

Except, again, this is not at all the case in TCW. The defect is not .0001%, it's basically all the clones in TCW. At the very least, it's the entirety of Torrent Company. The way TCW portrays the clones suggests that this genetic predisposition to follow orders does not exist. Really, who is the super obedient clone in TCW? Cody, who got put on the backburner? Dogma, who got mad and shot his General in the back?

In TCW, EVERY single clone is portrayed as super independent and individual. They went way out of their way to make this obnoxiously clear. It's one of the show's main themes.

Who watches TCW and goes "those clones are so blindly obedient"?

REALLY? No reason?


TL DR: Does anything in this mess make sense?
I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!

 

SW has never made sense.

 

"No. I am your father." is generally a reference good point wherein if you think you know one thing about Star Wars another thing will happen instead.

 

Didn't they have hypno-teaching? I'm sure that combined with the genetic predisposition and nudging of sleep learning it was pretty hardwired and then reinforced by military loyalty to rules of engagement and following orders.

And making it Traviss vs canon is a bit unfair since she had the regular line clones obeying without blinking, it was only Commandos and an ARC that disobeyed, and only a handful of those.

Remember that Kal's grand clone underground railroad was essentially a failure that ended up netting more Jedi than clones, and from her plans for IC2: Death Watch, the plan was that Rede, the clone who was supposedly loyal to Darman, Niner, and the idea of jumping ship, was actually completely loyal to the Empire, which would have crushed Kal's delusion of leading an exodus of clones from Imperial Service.

So...I don't really see it breaking anything; as far as the characters know it's not hardwired, but since KT's novels are tight third person and told from the character's perspectives...well, they WOULD think that, wouldn't they?

 

I'm sure TCW wouldn't have handled it this way, but it would be an easy retcon since the Republic introduced Spaarti clones toward the end of the war, their "flash learning" would presumably allow for these sort of rote responses to commands.

 

That was the first idea that came to my mind when all of this potential "conditioned command" thing first started to come to light. Considering Tup was introduced as a recently-fielded new clone in the Umbara arc, the idea that he was a Spaarti clone like the 14th Infantry from Order 66 seemed like a definite possibility for a follow-up, canon reconciling retcon. But if they're going with the idea that it isn't just Tup or these more recently-fielded clones, and it's something evident in first-generation clones like Fives, it makes the retcon much more difficult and requires the sort of double-layered contingency retcon HEDGESMFG has proposed.

 

It's contingency orders that anyone can see. But they're contingency orders that no one expects to be issued. Order 65 would have turned the tables on Palps and had the GAR arrest him with lethal force if necessary had it been issued.

 

I might be wrong that they're known to everyone, but I assumed that was true since the order to depose the Supreme Chancellor immediately preceded the order to wipe out the Jedi.

 

But I think they'd need to be know to high ranking people. I'm sure the Jedi Council would have known (they were the leaders of the army after all) and probably people like Mass Amada.

 

It's a "what-if" thing that no one ever thought they'd have to do.

 

Maybe this just falls under the category of the Jedi being terrible soldiers that they never bothered reading the contingency orders.