Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    I thought it was because he sacrificed himself for the greater good. He achieved a state of total selflessness, like Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. And given that the deal appears to be that you sacrifice your physical body to the Force in exchange for an incorporeal one, I wonder if we won't be seeing the Father again in ghost form.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 27, 2014
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  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    The Daughter did as well but didn't vanish.
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  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We were?

    Or someone cremates you.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 27, 2014
  4. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I hope that what we're told in Apocalypse gets contradicted. What Apocalypse told us contradicts the intent behind the TCW episodes.
    I've wondered if Father is the Shaman of the Whills.
  5. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Hm, yeah, I forgot about that. Maybe there is something to this notion that balance is required is well.

    And if you subscribe to the view that the Daughter represents the Jedi Order, it fits very well. After all, the members of the Old Jedi Order were by and large very compassionate individuals, but none of them achieved what the Jedi of the OT did. Perhaps the missing element is indeed a balancing amount of passion--achieved by Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin because of their mutual attachment to Luke. Qui-Gon achieved an incomplete form of the technique, and his lack of vanishing body indicates to me that he may not have possessed quite the necessary balance, perhaps because he was killed unexpectedly and, as an ardent follower of the Living Force, wasn't yet ready to relinquish his physical body to the Netherworld. Maybe his attachment to the Chosen One aided in his ability to stay anchored to the living realm in partial form. This is supported by Yoda's first contact with Qui-Gon's ghost coming during an emotional link with Anakin.

    e:

    But remember that Qui-Gon only came back as a voice, and was only able to take form as an apparition in the Force-amplifying realm of Mortis (whose very name suggests it is closer to the Netherworld than most places).

    In fact, I think I half recall a quote from Lucas explicitly linking these two things. I can't find it now, though, and I could be wrong.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 27, 2014
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    "Become a wave he has, Yoda thought. A wave without a shore."
  7. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    One line which I found unfortunate was

    "The voice I hear does not come from within, but speaks from beyond."

    I suppose this is prior to Dark Rendezvous. :p
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    You'd think a guy with ears that big would be able to make up his mind where a sound is coming from.
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  10. Contessa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2013
    star 2
    Could work out that way. Dark Rendezvous isn't supposed to be until 19 BBY, and the last time TCW put up a flag on the timeline, it was still in 20 BBY.
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  11. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Yoda is a lot more accepting of Qui-Gon's voice in Dark Rendezvous, but I was mostly commenting on Yoda's metaphysical understanding of the situation and the differentiation of the voice coming from beyond or from within -- Qui-Gon says "I am part of the Living Force, Yoda." Well, what's the Living Force?
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  12. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    Or Nihon.
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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
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    I would think the Living Force is the Force that Obi-Wan described, an energy field created by all living things. Qui-Gon lives on in the Force because, luminous beings that we are, he discovered that one does not need a physical body in order to be a living thing.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 28, 2014
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Whoops. My computer seems to be trying to kill me.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 28, 2014
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Triple post even! Sorry. Very embarrassing.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 28, 2014
  16. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    The Ones already are Celestials. Do they really have to be Whills too? Is everyone Celestial now?
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Qui-Gon wasn't the only Jedi who failed to disappear, was later cremated, and came back as a ghost...

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 28, 2014
  18. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    I hate asking rhetorical questions.
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  19. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    According to Lucas, Anakin vanished off-screen.
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  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    A summary of the "Anakin vanished" quotes (plus one that can be taken as "Anakin didn't")

    The Essential Guide to The Force: p85:

    After my father died on the Death Star his body vanished. I brought his armor, and his mechanical remains, to Endor and burned them. It seemed like the right thing to do. Maybe the best thing. The idea of burial just felt wrong. I could only imagine what it must have been like for him, trapped within that armor for so many years. I guess I hoped the flames would somehow liberate him.

    following a reference to him doing that, in Champions of the Force.

    RoTJ commentary, I've been told a few times, at least implies he does not, and there have been arguments that "it doesn't make sense to just cremate the armor".

    There's also a published script entry, which says he burned Anakins body, not just the armor.

    137 EXT ENDOR FOREST - NIGHT 137

    Luke sets a torch to the logs stacked under a funeral pyre where
    his father's body lies, again dressed in black mask and helmet.
    He stands, watching sadly, as the flames leap higher to consume
    Darth Vader -- Anakin Skywalker.

    I think the one of the first semi-G-canon sources to hint that it was just the armor Luke was burning, was the RoTJ Radio Drama, in 1996:

    "I burn his armor and with it the name of Darth Vader. May the name of Anakin Skywalker be a light that guides the Jedi for generations to comeā€¦ rest well, father. The Force is with you."

    And when I googled the subject, I got:

    According to Steve Sansweet of Lucasfilm and the script for the Return of the Jedi Special Edition, Anakin's body disappeared at death in the same way as Obi-Wan's and Yoda's bodies.
    with links to StarWars.com forums (which unfortunately are now defunct).

    As well as:

    http://forum1.aimoo.com/thehomepage...d-Anakin-disappear-when-he-died-1-875118.html
    According to Pabs on hyperspace today, George Lucas insisted that the starwars.com databank and the encylopedia state that Anakin disappear.
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  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learned how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity." - ROTJ DVD commentary, 2004
  22. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    S'okay, bro. I knew what you meant. *pats back*
  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    orly?

    I guess it's still preferable to being involved in a Lucas contradictionthon.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Feb 28, 2014
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    I'd personally take an explicit directive from Lucas more seriously than some loose language he used in a DVD commentary, but I guess it's technically ambiguous then, maybe?


    I just wanted to talk about Mortis. :(
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 28, 2014
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  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    I want to talk about it too but it seems like it will just turn into a debate (I'm afraid Lucas might have contradicted himself about it)!

    Anyway, my point is the Living Force is the Force generated by life, and if Qui-Gon is part of the Living Force, he lives in all life now through the Force energy that they generate. He's a wave in the Force, so to speak. That is, if you want to envision the Force through that sort of a metaphor. So one might argue that the voice of Qui-Gon very much did come from within.

    I guess we could get really technical and suppose that maybe these Force ghosts are actually part of the Cosmic/Unifying Force, which might be a transcendent aspect of the Force and thus "beyond," but the EU currently seems to hold the opinion, or rather Luke does, that Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda were part of the Living Force, whereas Vergere was part of the Unifying Force as an apparition. This might change that, but Qui-Gon did say he was part of the Living Force.