Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. JediFett10 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2008
    star 1
    Any spoilers for the Yoda arc please???
  2. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Korriban is Moraband because why not. The Whills are priestesses with Kabuki masks, Darth Bane is a smoldering stone giant that does not really exist, Yoda fights Sidious and contemplates his lair in a vision, and although he remembers everything he's seen, he still won't make the connexion with Palpatine until ROTS--ergo, Yoda is a complete idiot.
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Mar 7, 2014
  3. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  4. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Does he see Palpatine or hideously disfigured Sidious underneath the hood? That would explain it.
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  5. melkor834 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2009
    star 3
    Yoda never actually sees the real Sidious. He just has a vision of him and confronts an illusion.
    Last edited by melkor834, Mar 7, 2014
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  6. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Wait, what?

    Ahsoka dies in TLM? How is that not a bigger piece of news splad across the board yet...?

    If it happens well... I guess some will be happy, but others will be mightily pissed off.
  7. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Or a clever way of sidestepping the "Can Sith retain their identity or not" dilemma which Lucas introduced, imho. Yoda only claims he's an illusion...

    EDIT: Hey, how could an illusion know info only the real Darth Bane would know?
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Mar 7, 2014
  8. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    He sees him under the hood, but it's definitely a normal-looking Palpatine, down to the cleft chin, nose, voice, height and so on. And even if he knows it's just a vision, don't you think he should inquire about it if he were really clever? His vision actually tansported him to Sidious' lair in the Works, which is a real place on Coruscant. The fact that it's a vision doesn't mean it doesn't hold elements of truth.
  9. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    But the nature of his journey is filled with symbolism, though. And by ROTS, the Jedi Council all agree the Dark Side surrounds the Chancellor. Maybe they were too arrogant to think he actually was a Sith, rather than was manipulated by them, like all the other politicians in SW.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Mar 7, 2014
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  10. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Isn't that sad though? A man who no longer cares for his work, the work of others, and has resorted to being childish on things that kind of matter to people. It doesn't take a lot of effort. In fact it takes more effort to do it this way.

    It's the same kind of thing when he told the TFU team Sith names for Starkiller.

    “The team threw a Hail Mary to George, saying the game would have more credibility if the apprentice had a ‘Darth’ title,” a Force Unleashed team member says. Lucas agreed that this situation made sense for Sith royalty, and offered up two Darth titles for the team to choose from. “He threw out ‘Darth Icky’ and ‘Darth Insanius.’ There was a pregnant pause in the room after that. People waiting for George to say ‘just kidding,’ but it never comes, and he just moved on to another point.”

    He simply doesn't care, and it's kind of scary.
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  11. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Humbug. Those "Lost Missions" are the last straw for me. I'm tired of all those gratuitous continuity shenanigans. This sentence from the official episode guide to "The Lost One" pretty much sums up how I feel about this all:
    I believe time has come for me to abandon ship, although I know that one miserable, unassuming fan rage quitting does not make any difference.
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Mar 7, 2014
  12. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    If it was to be discovered down the road a bit that GL was in the early stages of Alzheimer's during this time (2008 - present) would that be grounds to strike from canon all his universe-wrecking executive orders made during this period?
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  13. JediFett10 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2008
    star 1
    Is this all true?? Can someone give me a detailed summary pease???
  14. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2010
    star 3
    So I just finished the Clone Wars. The entire series.

    Firstly, wow. What a season. What a finale. There was much in this I did not expect.

    First, more on the Clovis arc.

    The Banking clan is indeed a neutral entity that the Republic cannot survive without that much of the galaxy (including neutral worlds) rely on for credit. However, it is also clear that many, many dealings with the separatists have been going on through numerous hidden transactions. Many within the clan are separatists, and many are neutral. Clovis tries to shift the entire faction back to true neutrality where it only allows proper commerce and business between two sides unbiased, but Dooku and Sidious both game him together and ultimate get the bank consolidated back into republic hands entirely. I assume the rouge separatist elements in the clan take their remaining credits and flee, using them to fight what's left of the war openly. It's not perfect, but I do feel the arc makes much more sense of the concept.

    Next, the Mace/JarJar 2 parter.

    Mother Talzin was gathering Living Force for her own end through sacraficing strongly force sensitive individuals and literally stealing their living force energy (the green energy she relies on). She claimed it was to use it on herself to surpass the power of any Sith and Jedi, but I suspect it was for something much more fundamental. Her plan fails and the Orb is destroyed accidentally by JarJar. When this happen, she fades away, shrieking in horror and pain after looking over the broken orb. As I have said before, if she is never seen again, this very well could be her death. On the season 4 blu ray, Sam Witner dropped a comment that one should wonder "if she was ever really alive". I suspect there's more truth to that bit of speculation than we realize. Perhaps she was an apparition of sorts that clung to life by stealing living force, and she simply ran out and vanished. Ending her and her agenda.

    Finally, and oh man, what an arc... the Yoda arc.

    Yes, there are issues. The majority of the issues we addressed beforehand in this thread, but I can fairly happily say that my solutions still stand. It is confirmed in dialogue that Dooku ended up with Sifo-Dyas' body. It is also again confirmed that they were once working together, before Tyranus betrayed Sifo-Dyas. While the dilaogue does imply Sifo-Dyas' death to have happened during Valorum's administration, Valorum states that he does not remember the precise timing of events, and Palpatine plays as hands off with the situation as he can, claiming that it was all before his time (which could easily be a lie, he's definitely lying to Yoda about not being familiar with Sifo-Dyas). It is confirmed that the Pykes shot down Sifo-Dyas' shuttle and delivered his body to Dooku afterwards. We can therefor assume that though the mission where SD dealt with the Pykes started during Valorum's time, but perhaps ended later. Also, it is confirmed through dialogue that SD did indeed have a vision of the war and ordered the clone army because of this, just like Plagueis suggested. He apparently sat on the Jedi council once, which is a new retcon, and warned the jedi of the coming war, but when is not specified, so it could be years before Ep I. They refused to listen. Oh, and for one last bit of bonus continuity... the Felician tribes are mentioned as being primitives. Guess they're canon after all.

    The do constantly talk of force ghosts as being impossible, yet with every mention of this, either Yoda or Anakin counters with a quick reminder of "as far as we know". So the old idea of them having lost the knowledge comes back into play. Either Jedi who previously knew the technique never passed it on, archived the knowledge, or the knowledge was lost and any mention of such possibility was considered a myth. I wouldn't be surprised if Jedi even debate over whether an ancient Jedi could survive in the force.

    Dooku admits to being Tyranus and says he told Obiwan everything he needed to know back on Geonosis. The Jedi council now fully realize the clones are part of a plot on Dooku's behalf, but are unsure of the purpose. They merely think helped supply them an army, but why is what they are debating in the first 2 episodes. Despite what happened in the Order 66 arc, those events were so well covered up by the Sith that they never put 2 and 2 together. Yoda defends the clones as good men who have saved their lives countless times and who may well have grown beyond whatever purpose Dooku had for them, and felt they could still be trusted.

    Yoda goes to Degobah and does see a vision of the Jedi fighting clones, deaths, ect. However, Qui-Gon prefaces this vision with a warning that his fears would manifest inside the cave, so what he sees could easily be interpreted as his fear of the revelation that the clones may have been a part of Dooku's plan, rather than a true vision of the future.

    The Living Force and the Cosmic Force are discussed in great detail, and it's pretty clear that you can just use the Cosmic Force as another word for the Unifying force (though the latter focused more oh prophesies and foreknowledge, nothing in the former precludes this from being part of it. It's actually all pretty cool.) Midi-clorians are just a scientific measurement for a much greater mystery, and are confirmed in dialogue as such.

    Yoda travels to a planet at the center of the galaxy from which it seems midiclorians flow outward. The name and precise nature of this planet is never clarified. It doesn't seem to be Tython, but who knows? The final 2 episodes are quite frankly karking amazing. They have all the emotional core and directing talent that the PT so often lacked, and add much to the saga once one gets beyond minor inconsistencies. The sages are very, very clearly meant to be whatever concept Lucas had in mind for the Whills. They are never called such, but it's obvious this is who he conceptually meant them to be. I won't say more than this so as not to spoil it too greatly, but it goes into much of Yoda's character in a great and well crafted way, far better than how Mortis handled this sort of thing.

    And Finally, "Moraband". Yeah, they changed the name. But they got everything else right. It's Korriban, without a doubt. You see the valley of the Sith. You see the temple. You see what seems to be multiple sith spirits haunting yoda. You see an apparition of Bane challenging Yoda. You see Bane's spirit pop out of a KOTOResque tomb before he confronts Yoda. The conversation between the two is short but 100% canonically accurate. Bane is said to be an illusion, but who knows with this planet? He does look different, but that can be explained away by either the illusion (what Yoda imagined Bane to look like), or by Bane's spirit taking on a new form. Neither of which are problematic. Mark's voicing of him was awesome. We also have other unexpected cameos from the show's past. I won't ruin those surprises if you don't already know.

    Then there's the Sidious fight...

    It's handled perfectly. Every step of the way. It does absolutely nothing to reveal Sidious' identity to Yoda (beyond the name Sidious, which they had learned around this time period anyway), but only adds things to the Ep III fight I wanted to see more of. It also serves as a not so subtle metaphor for how the remainder of the war plays out. You'll see what I mean. It's just beautiful. Oh, and did I mention Sidious initiates it together with Dooku in a Sithisis fashion using Sith alchemy in their factory in the works? Everything about this is just great to watch.

    The final point of contention, and I suspect this is where Filoni said the great debate would come about... is not a C-Canon issue, but a purely G-Canon one. At the end of his journey, Yoda returns to the temple and chooses not to tell the Jedi what he saw while away. He does state that what he learned may lead them to victory over the Sith as a whole even if they can't win the war. It's ambiguous how much he really knows about the fate of the order, and what he can or can't say. He seems to gain an understanding that he has a purpose for learning to survive death beyond the war, and there is a foreboding sense of great loss approaching, yet it's still unclear how bad he believes things will get. I suspect he kept quiet because he wasn't sure how to interpret all that he saw, wasn't sure what was real, and clearly the council did not believe his talk of contacting Qui-Gon. I assume he simply never believed he saw anything that was truly the future until it was too late.

    Overall though, once you sort through the issues... it's quite a journey, and it brings this show to a beautifully appropriate close. Rebels now has a lot to live up to after I've seen these episodes.

    I will be posting my new time-line revisions later today. I am now 100% confident I've got a working order for the entire war.
  15. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Sidious being concealed under his hood is plot mechanics. It happened and will continue to happen?

    And the reason Mace cites for not suspecting Palpatine in RotS is that he already rules the galaxy. Which is a fair logical point.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  16. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2010
    star 3
    They go out of their way to show that when Yoda tries to look under Sidious' hood, he sees nothing there. That was meant to address the issue of him "seeing" Sids directly.
  17. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    If even the members of the Lit boards now dive into unconditional TCW approval, then I presume I am right to abandon ship now.
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Mar 7, 2014
  18. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
  19. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    If all of this is true, I love you.
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  20. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Thank Waru that Yoda-meets-the-real-Sids rumor was bunk.[face_relieved]

    But Bane should give Tsavong Lah his duds back.
  21. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    The arc sounds interesting enough to almost make me regret it will probably take me months to get around to finishing the series.
  22. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2010
    star 3
    Only one minor complaint from me...

    Sids does call the planet Moraband once in the episode. I was hoping it'd be something only the sages (Can I call them the Whills yet?) say. Not that this changes much, really, as it's just a third name for the world... but I'm pretty sure the EU has Sids mentioning "Korriban" by name somewhere.

    And with that, I need sleep. Glad I didn't work today, but I haven't stayed up this late/early for awhile.
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  23. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    If the Moraband=Korriban is the biggest problem overall with these episodes, we'll call it an Istanbul-Constantinople thing and never speak of it again, unless it's repeated in the new movies?
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  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
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  25. melkor834 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2009
    star 3
    Last edited by melkor834, Mar 7, 2014