Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    The fact that the sword was invisible up to a certain point in time when it was supposedly "created out of thin air" does not mean it was in fact created out of thin air. That's the most common magician's trick, making things appear "out of thin air".

    I'm not saying that there's nothing to Talzin's use of the Force, just that it is overwhelmingly based on theatrics and misdirection to make her appear far more powerful than she is. That's the whole purpose of chanting before casting one's spells, to draw attention from your sleight-of-hand.

    Edit: I watched The Prestige again last night (and was reminded that it has of the wonkiest film premises ever), and I'd say I see Talzin's magic as The Real Trasported Man act was presented in that film: there's an extraordinary, apparently supernatural truth at its core, but it is dressed up with illusionary tactics.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Jul 19, 2014
  2. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    I just treat the chanting as Talzin's way of focusing her mind.

    In the Book of Sith, it talked about Sith incantations too, and Sorzus Syn waxed lyrically about how you would draw on the power of all those sorcerers before you, invoking their power, etc, etc, and from a certain point of view, sure, that's true: you're thinking about what someone else has managed, picturing what you want to achieve while chanting, convincing yourself that it's possible and that you can do it. I treat Talzin and the Nightsisters the same way; it's just their own way of mental conditioning.

    Which, yeah, actually means they're not as in control of the Force as a Jedi who doesn't need to do all that, and means that they're going to get afraid if you burn their book of spells, and suddenly lose all their confidence and no longer believe they have the power to do it, but... I like the effect. It's like a wizard's magic wand. My D&D knowledge is flaky, but I vaguely recall something about, I think Elminster, being able to cast spells without a magic wand, and that being treated as a sign he was superior to ordinary wizards... or am I thinking of Dumbledore... I forget, I know I've seen that trope used to elevate really important characters above every other Tom, Dick and Harry somewhere.

    Which is why I enjoy that, unlike Talzin, Palpatine doesn't need to put on his robe and wizard hat to cast Force Lightning: he's got enough confidence in his power without relying on the self-theatrics.
  3. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Dumbledore. Wizards in Harry Potter need wands, or something - my SO is a Potter fan and works at Potter doing the wand demonstrations, and that came up recently.

    D&D, wands are just devices that allow to cast one particular spell over and over until it runs out of charges.
  4. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    Though only after being trained, for some reason.
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  5. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Well, technically that's true in 3E D&D as well. You can't just pick up a wand and start using it unless you have the ability to do so.

    But in Harry Potter it's a necessity, unless you are really, really awesome. Which is why the Science Wizard is the greatest wizard in all of Harry Potter.
  6. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    No, I mean Harry could use magic without a wand just fine until they started training him. That's how they find out if someone is a wizard in the first place.
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  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    "Spontaneous magic" (that young pre-Hogwarts wizards manifest) seems to be a different thing from controlled magic.
  8. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Controlled magic without wands is an advanced skill, but not impossible to master.
  9. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
  10. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    Fives has that snarl down pat, doesn't he?
  11. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Can you dig it up and quote the description of the Kilian Ranger. I want to know how one is described outside of the RPG book. bitte
    Last edited by Gamiel, Aug 29, 2014
  12. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    IIRC, it was pretty much a close description of how the character was depicted in the RPG book. I think she just went off that look and described the coat and odd weapon. Sorry, I just put some of my stuff in storage as we're repainting the apartment. ISTR it's in the same passage where they take note of Hallena Devis as standing out because of her skin colour and attitude.

    I think she kept it vague...sort of "if you want it to be one that was the intent but nobody is wedded to it", because Altis was the sort who would pick up random Force users and just chat. It's a nice easter egg, but vague enough that if people wanted to ignore it because of question of how/why one would be there they could.

    I wonder if I can convince Coop into letting me write an article about Altis being Rabbi Hillel to Yoda's/Old Jedi Order's Rabbi Shammi.

    I wish things like Luke's divergence from OJO teachings* were covered more in the books and material that came out after the PT movies. I think it was sorta clear that thanks to Palpatine destroying so much of the OJO's teachings, it ended up being the smaller academies that Luke drew from for his inspiration for how to train his Order. The recon of Altis being a tolerated separate school of thought along with the Corellian Jedi and the Alamas Council is pretty interesting. I would have liked to have seen those sorts of divides explored more, in the same way I'd liked to have seen more darksiders than just Sith explored.

    *One of the more frustrating things from the fallout of the PT movies was that Luke somehow started becoming more inflexible and it felt like there was a sense of making his Order more...I don't know how to explain it, but in the early Bantam days and even into NJO it felt like Luke's Order was more of a loose connection of force users who stood for what was right simply because they had been trained by Luke and they were Jedi. It seemed like once the PT came out the authors began to make them more dogmatic and less flexible.
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  13. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    So the description was based on Adi Granov's illustration?
    No problem, I am thankful for what I can get.
  14. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4

    That was Adi Granov? I'm used to his more painted looking work. Yes, the same illustration that I believe Wook is using *goes to check* Yeah, I think that's the only illustration of them ever. It's the description of the jacket that's part of the tip-off.
  15. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks and to bad. I really don't like Granov's design and had hoped she had used something else to describe/hint at a kilian ranger.
  16. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Apparently they're on a planet - Mesarian, in the Outer Rim, rather than a ship:

    p378 of 501st:

    Jusik didn't take off his helmet. He and Fi had a good infrared image in the gloom of the shed, and there was no point in being rash. The male human who walked slowly toward them was a Force-user all right, but there was something different in the impression he left in Jusik's mind. For a moment Jusik thought they'd been set up by a dark sider, but it wasn't that at all. And this man wasn't a Jedi. He was something else. He stood four meters in front of them, a square-built man in an ancient ankle-length coat with deep vents and leather shoulder panels that made him look like something out of a costume drama. But the rife he held on Jusik was absolutely real.
    "Master Altis will see you now," he said stiffly. "Please follow me."

    p381

    Jusik felt a flood of relief. He'd almost expected Altis to be too wary of a trap to cooperate, but he'd forgotten that he was dealing with Jedi, and one thing he could be sure of was that they felt his true intentions. He looked around at the group. Yes, it was a very mixed bag indeed, six different species, male and female, young and old. And he felt some that weren't Force-sensitive.
    The man with the ancient coat still perplexed him. So did a striking woman with flawless black skin that looked almost polished. She dissected Jusik with a glance - not unkind, simply thorough, as if she was used to making fast judgements - and went to speak to Fi.
    "Do you know anyone in the Five-oh-first?" she asked.
    "Yes ma'am."
    "Really?"
    "Yes."
    "I knew some very fine troopers from the legion. I'm glad there's another life for them if they want it."
    "We never close, ma'am. Open all hours."
    "Remember that Imperial Intel is full of dark siders and would-be Sith," she said. "So watch your back, soldier. It was looking a bit too mystic even when I worked with them. I'm Hallana, by the way. I used to be a spook, but I'm all better now."
    "I leave the intel stuff to my crazy brothers," Fi said. "I just shoot things. And feed the nuna."
    "Very wise," Hallana said.


    Denning's probably the main one responsible, with Dark Nest Trilogy resetting the depiction from "Academy" to "Temple on Coruscant"
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 30, 2014
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  18. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I am a bit uncertain here: how did Jusik know the ranger was a Force-user, did he feel telepathically them up which Jusik felt or was there something else?
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Remember Vader's "The Force is strong with this one" in ANH? Probably like that.
  20. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Which was "funny" considering how the PT showed how Jedi should NOT be. It culminated (well, I gave up on it) with Luke, tha man who refused to kill his father because it was just wrong, sending a sibling to kill the other, among other things. I´d really like to have a "making of" of the Denningverse, just to know wtf the editors were thinking.
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  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    There's plenty of people around who argue that this is not the lesson that should be drawn from the PT. That the PT Jedi are fine - and Anakin's fall was Not Their Fault.
  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Anakin's fall isn't their fault, but Anakin's fall is incidental to their being wiped out.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Same principle applies - they were wiped out by the Sith - and arguments that their own non-attachment doctrine contributed to this, are occasionally characterised as "westernised prejudice" or "victim-blaming".
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Claiming that the Jedi order of the prequels was flawed, and deliberately made so by George Lucas, isn't quite the same as blaming a rape victim for dressing provocatively.

    They weren't.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 31, 2014
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 31, 2014