1. Post spoilers in the official The Force Awakens spoiler thread only, using a spoiler tag! Violators will be banned!

Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Pretty sure they had jobs, at least Nomi and Corran did.

    Wait...what?

    All politicians are terrible? This is a blanket rule? All government organizations are terrible? On principle, no one should ever have a government job?

    Or are you saying that every politician in the Old Republic era was terrible?

    @DigitalMessiah : You're right, and that is what I have been saying all along. The point of disagreement seems to be that the Jedi are to be blamed because they didn't realize they had been duped, or because they worked for the government.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Sep 1, 2014
    Gamiel likes this.
  2. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    I'm saying that, while some politicians are more terrible-some than others, all people who wield power are bad people by definition. Power makes them bad people; that is the nature of power. There are politicians who don't wield power (they're usually called unsuccessful), so not all politicians are bad people. If you want to preserve your integrity, stay away from positions of power. You can preserve your integrity while working for the government, of course, but can you be head of state and preserve your integrity? Not when getting there requires not having any integrity.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Sep 1, 2014
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Eh, I don't agree with that at all.
    Gamiel likes this.
  4. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    I would remind you that the Jedi planned the coup before they knew about Palpatine being a Sith. It's explicitly in the film.

    So the Jedi apparently did consider it their responsibility to police the Senate.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  5. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Can you show me the statistics were it says that "Most of worlds in the Republic were dirt-poor $#%holes exploited by their Senators"?
    And the way I see it is rather smart to stay on Coruscant since it is the galaxies biggest hyperlane junction and the main spot for everything else. It is just like how many organisations have their main office in the capital city whit the added bonus that you can relatively easy get to anywhere just as fast, something that is rather good for an organisation whose members usually were traveling all-over the Republic and beyond to do their job.
    Also can you point to were it is stated that "Jedi stayed mostly on Coruscant where all the wealth was accumulated -- so some it would trickle down to them, of course"?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I've only seen the film all the way through once, but as I recall, the Jedi thought Palpatine was under the influence of a Sith before they knew that he actually was the Sith, and they thought they might have to take temporary control in order to protect both Palpatine and the Senate from the Sith.

    If we're heading in the direction of "the Jedi are exactly what Palpatine told the Senate that they were while declaring himself Emperor--power mongers who just wanted to run the government because power"--this conversation has gotten beyond ridiculous.
  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    [IMG]
    Valin__Kenobi and Sinrebirth like this.
  8. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    The picture I painted can be seen in the EU, consistently. And in The Clone Wars.
    There is no evidence to suggest that the Jedi were any less effective at getting where they needed to be when each individual member of the Order followed nothing but the Force and their own conscience. Ossus was a good place to gather, because they could deal with frontier trouble and avoid becoming enmeshed in Republic politics.

    There is, however, plenty of evidence that the Jedi were not doing the right thing in the prequels -- it's one of the main themes of the trilogy.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Yeah, I know, Lucas set them up as heroes in the OT and in one of his epic examples of mind-changing, tried to piss on them in the PT and particularly in TCW.

    I'm not buying it.
  10. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    The three Jedi of the OT (that's three) became the heroes because they realized that they and the other 10,000 had been doing it all wrong.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Sep 1, 2014
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    That's not how I interpreted what they did.

    In fact, I saw quite a few similarities between the PT and OT Jedi, especially Yoda's teachings on Dagobah about letting go of Han and Leia if Luke honors what they fight for.
    JoinTheSchwarz likes this.
  12. JediKnight75 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 3
    I never felt that the Jedi were portrayed as bad in the PT or TCW. I always felt that they were heroes who were trying to do what was best for the galaxy. The only thing I think can be used for an argument that they were handled poorly was Ahsoka's trial. Although. I'd argue this was due to a lack of information in addition to bad information.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I agree with you but given Filoni's commentary, I'm not sure that's the impression we were supposed to have.

    Not that I care, as I don't let anyone tell me what to think, but there it is.
    _Catherine_ likes this.
  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 6
    Some people here argue that Yoda was wrong.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I'm aware of that, and I don't agree.
  16. JediKnight75 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 3
    I didn't know there was a commentary that mentioned this. Oh well, these things are open to interpretation and I doubt they'll officially canonize the OJO as bad and corrupt -- all we have is what was seen on screen. I wouldn't be surprises if everyone on the story group had a different opinion. I know this topic wasn't about canon, but I tend to take the view that if they don't canonize those things than my interpretation is just as valid as the creators.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    He said something about "highlighting the flaws" of the Jedi as the intention of that arc.
  18. JediKnight75 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 3
    I don't agree that the arc showed the flaws of the Jedi, in any explicit way (I could always rewatch the arc to see of I notice something different.

    I wouldn't have a problem with them setting out to point out flaws in the order, occasionally. The Jedi are flawed, just like everyone else and flaws make characters more relareable. I don't think the Jedi should have a flaw of the sort that is often used in tragedies -- one that leads to their destruction. Anakin is supposed to be the tragic figure in the PT -- how successfully that was accomplished is up for debate -- and so his flaws should he the cause of the tragic event, which they are. It is his flaw that causes the Jedi to be destroyed and the Republic to fall. The Jedi don't need and shouldn't have a fatal flaw nor do I perceive one.
    Last edited by JediKnight75, Sep 1, 2014
  19. ShanOffirin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2006
    star 2

    Considering what happened with the Jedi relationship under Fey'lya's New Republic and that disaster called the Galactic Alliance it isn't a surprise. I was ready to capitulateto the Empire again after re-reading the New Jedi Order series recently.
  20. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Just as bad as blaming the Jedi is the opposite extreme: accusing anybody who disagrees with the Jedi in any way whatsoever of being a Sith.
  21. ShanOffirin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2006
    star 2

    Is this really the page to discuss this on. It's been going on for 10 pages now, perhaps if you wanna talk about "Jedi vs Palpatine - right or wrong?" start a new page and don't clog this one since its dedicated to the shows and comics of the Clone Wars TV series.
  22. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    And so was the galaxy; which is why LotF rung true to me - Fey'lya invalidated democracy to a greater or lesser extent. Which is why I could really see Coruscant happily embracing Caedus, before realising their error when Daala goes off the rails more explosively than even Fey'lya; people needed to relearn that a dictatorship was a bad thing.

    In short, LotF injected a lot of grey into Star Wars, while FotJ made things more black and white again. Yes, Caedus saved the galaxy from chaos by unifying it against him, but he unleashed Abeloth, the Tribe, and saw Imperials make an attempt to seize control of the galaxy. So was it worth it? No.

    No Caedus; no Apocalypse.

    No Caedus; Krayt seizes control of the galaxy a bit earlier.

    But for all we know Krayt's reign would've lasted for a few months as opposed to years; we definitely wouldn't have seen Krayt emerge with two Sith Orders to his name.

    Shrug.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  23. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I will have to disagree, I admit that we se many bad worlds but we also see many nice worlds and if I remember right so were many of bad worlds made bad in the time of the clone war or the Empire or were fringe worlds outside of the Republics control.
    True but there is also no evidence to suggest againt it.
    You have to remember that the Republic back then was smaller, after all Ossus was one of the core worlds and still rather near the frontiers of that time.
    I would not say that it is a main theme, we are shown that they jedi have grown stagnant and did not see that their enemies have changed or that the corruption in the senate was something they just could not outride.
    Now the problem is what they could have done or should do. Depending on who you ask you get different answers: some seems to want them to become a whole spiritual order who are estranged from the worldly galaxy; other seems to think they should have been more involved with society and worked more to oil the gears of the Republic to turn their Force guided way; others, like you, seems to think that they should become vigilantes who only answered to the Force itself; I have also seen some seems to advocate for that the jedi should just allow the Republic to burn since it would clean out the corruption.
    Personally I have no idea[face_dunno]
    Last edited by Gamiel, Sep 2, 2014
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    If you believe Traviss, the Jedi should have seceded from the Republic the moment Palpatine or the Senate tried to order them to use the clone army.

    With "slavery" being a Moral Event Horizon - once the Jedi condoned it implicitly, no matter what the "for the greater good" justification, they crossed a very important line.

    Of course - that's Traviss. Others are much more forgiving of that decision.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 2, 2014
  25. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I can understand that point of view but to my understanding the only thing that would have happened if the Republic told the clone troopers that they were "free" (how do you tell them that actually) is that a large majority of the clones would ask for a Republic citizenship and then join the army. This would crate lot of paperwork and give the separatist time to take over more worlds and strengthen their hold on the one they already have. No realistic politician or general in the situation the Republic as in would have done that.
    So the jedi probably though that the troops going to fight either way and they probably could save more of them, and other lives, by fighting with them then just abounded them and when the war was over they could begun to fight for clone trooper rights and veteran benefits.
    But that is just my understanding of it.
    Last edited by Gamiel, Sep 2, 2014
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.