Clone Wars edited together would have made a better entry into the PT than TPM

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Joeykin_Starrunner, Mar 26, 2005.

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  1. Joeykin_Starrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    After watching all of the Clone Wars cartoons, chapters 1 to 25, I was struck with an epiphany. With minor tweaks, and transplanted to live action, the story told in the Clone Wars cartoons would have made a better entry to the prequel trilogy than the Phantom Menace.

    Let me explain...and keep in mind that this is all hypothetical of course...

    What we now know as Episode Two: Attack of the Clones would have come out first and have been called The Phantom Menace. The events that transpired in the real Phantom Menace could have been covered in a few lines of exposition. If it turned out to be TOO much backstory to cover, then the events of the (real) Phantom Menace could have been simplified, or, the backstory revelations could have been spilt up over the first two movies. Examples where the backstory could have been divulged are: in the opening scenes where Anakin and Obi Wan are guarding Padme in her apartment...that was a perfect time for them to talk about the Naboo battle, and the effect that Qui Gon had on their lives; also, the Obi Wan/Mace/Yoda scene in the Jedi Temple hallway could have been extended to reveal more backstory. One area that could have covered the backstory immensely, and would have benefitted from it would have been Anakin and Padme's scenes. Think about it...it would have fit in perfectly for Anakin and Padme to talk about their past, and the events of the Naboo blockade ten years ago. And wouldn't it have been more signifigant to see Anakin talk to her about the propehcy that he is supposedly meant to fulfill, and the pressures of dealing with being the "Chosen One", than rolling around in the grass, or using cheesy pick up lines like "Everything is smooth here"...? Or, new scenes could have been added, to cover some of these backstory issues. Sure the movie would have been a little longer, but us fans wouldn't have complained, am I right fans? =) So again, with some minor tweaking, the story told in Episode Two would have made a more suitable Episode One. Which leads us to:

    Episode Two: Attack of the Clones, which would tell the same exact story that the Clone Wars cartoons told, with the same exact battle choreography, except in live action. I think with a few minor tweaks, this could have worked. Watching Vol.1 again on DVD, and seeing how smooth the whole thing seemed upon being edited together, and then seeing how VOL 2 picked up right where VOL 1 ended, showed me how great the story arc flowed as a whole. Not to mention that the story arc covered some pretty important stuff...Anakin being chipped away by the Dark Side (his battle with Asajj, the vision he received in the cave, the way he continually abused his powers esp. at the end, and how he "failed" the test of self awareness), the subtle development of key relationships like Anakin/Obi Wan and Anakin/Amidala, seeing all the battles that made these heroes into legends, Dooku revealing the location of the Jedi Temple and dueling with Grievous, Anakin being made a Jedi knight, all the humor and Original Trilogy references (both visual and verbal), even 3PO getting his gold covers...so much incredibly cool info was divulged. The most important of these being the subtle way that Anakin is showed succumbing to the Dark Side over the course of the story. It would have flowed perfectly from the end of AOTC'S storyline. AND OF COURSE...how amazing would it have been to see all those battle scenes in live action? Sure it would've been the most expensive movie ever made, but hey, George coulda handled it I think =). I can even see the last scene too...Obi Wan talking to Anakin aboard the ship...Anakin tells him he failed to know himself...they get the distress call from Coruscant...Anakin runs off to muster the troops...Obi Wan looks after him worriedly...cut to Wide Shot, camera slowly pulls out, Obi Wan's back to the camera as the soldiers hustle to get to their ships...BAM IRIS OUT, STAR WARS MAIN THEME, CREDITS. WHAT A CLIFF HANGER!! I think it could work.

    Of course, as I said before, in order for Clone Wars to completely work
  2. Reverend_Duck Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2005
    star 2
    I think most of your ideas are quite cool. Although I don't like the Clone Wars series for a number of reasons, starting the prequels off with the Attack of the Clones storyline would probably be better, story-wise.

    However, if we didn't have The Phantom Menace we would never have seen...

    Darth Maul! Nor Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon Jinn.

    Also, Jar-Jar would probably not feature at all, which would be a bit sad (I actually like him), but overall, your suggestions are cool.
  3. Joeykin_Starrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    This is true, Darth Maul and Liam would be missed.

    However...

    Qui Gon was shown in a dream sequence that Yoda had during the Clone Wars cartoons. This coulda been his first appearance (in my hypothetical trilogy), and Liam could have filmed a cameo. Besides, we don't know yet whether or not he appears as a ghost in EP3, so there is another potential opportunity for him to be shown. Also, I know it's never been done before in Star Wars so maybe it would break the pattern, but there is the possibility of flashbacks featuring Qui Gonn as well.

    As for Darth Maul...

    Perhaps he could be worked into the Clone Wars story, maybe replacing Asajj Ventress as the villain who Anakin fights on Yavin? Or maybe there could be a cool little subplot wherein Grievous and Maul compete to see who is the better apprentice =). But on a more serious note...doesn't that say alot about TPM that it's best moment was an action scene as opposed to an emotional scene? What I mean is, there should be more that we would miss from a non existant TPM than a fight scene. There's no huge emotional or story-related progression or plot point that we would miss from TPM, that couldnt be covered in backstory exposition in my hypothetical trilogy. ATOC has the Tungsten massacre scene. Empire has the father revelation scene, and yes that revelation took place during a fight, but the best moment was the revelation, and made the fight better in later viewings once we knew the stakes (father vs. son). You see what I mean? In the big picture, the Maul/Qui Gon/Obi Wan fight doesn't really matter. Sure it allows Obi Wan to be made into a Master and Anakin's apprentice, but there are way more importan story points we should see (the development of Anakin's downfall shown in CW)than that one. Meaning, there's more to benefit the storyline overall in Clone Wars than in TPM.

    As for Jar Jar...well, to each his own. But that's just my opinion =)
  4. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    Star Wars isn't about the battles, and the military conflicts, despite it's name.

    It is about the rise and fall of a human being.
    The formation of a family and the relationships which will test it.
    The destruction of a democracy, and the rise of a tyranny.

    To me the Clone Wars would be boring if it wasn't for the story of Palpatine's manipulations.

    Anakin's story begins in The Phantom Menace.
    The Sith begin their Jihad against the Jedi in The Phantom Menace.
    The conflict with the Trade Federation begins in TPM.
    Anakin meets Padme and is introduced to the Jedi in TPM.
    Palpatine begins with his first major manipulation in TPM.
    Besides all of that, The Phantom Menace gives a proper introduction to Anakin, Padme, Yoda, Obi-Wan, the droids, Sidious, Palpatine, the Republic, and GFFA as a whole.

    To me it is one of the most interesting of the Star Wars films. I enjoy it much more than Attack of the Clones, because it has a certain depth and spirituality which Episode II is lacking.

    It has it's faults (bathroom humor, a pod race that goes one too long) but on the whole it is an excellent introduction to the saga. In my opinion Lucas knew when to begin the films, and I'm glad he did it this way.

    -Seldon
  5. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    I respect your opinion, but I'm just going to give you this face: [face_plain]

    The only REAL fault that screwed up TPM is the no-force explanation and a whole bunch of crap about midichlorians. If it had that, than TPM would nearly be perfect (except for too much Jar Jar, and Anakin accidentally blowing up the ship) ;)

    I quite simply don't like what you posted. AOTC is NO introduction, and just putting exposition lines would be quite dull. I'd rather see it, than hear about it. If AOTC had been TPM, people would complain, and say crap like, "Why can't we see where Anakin came from?" "What about his mother?" "Why can't we see Anakin as a slave?" "The only time we see Anakin's piloting skills is in the speeder chase. We should've seen more." :rolleyes:

    Please don't take this as an offense. I respect your opinion, so I expect you to respect mine. :)
  6. dooku-ca-choo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2004
    star 2
    Well I guess, as with most things, it comes down to personal preference. And personally I think TPM > CW by a country mile. Story-wise there's so much more in TPM than there is with the cartoon. Your premise is basically to shoe-horn in the whole TPM story into flashbacks and dialogue while trying to fill in the CW story to try to make a whole movie. My main criticism of the cartoon is there just isn't enough story there to hold my interest. I think for your idea to work, the whole beginning of the PT would have to be reworked to fit into the timeframe you're talking about, and much more story development would have to occur during the CW than exists right now.
  7. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    I still think we need TPM. We don't need two consecutive films driven by action. We need the slow parts in TPM. It's the only time where see the unblemished Republic, something we need.
  8. Joeykin_Starrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    Well, first off I'd just like to say that I respect all of your opinions, and that I would never disrespect anyone. That's why I started this post in the first place, to GET opinions on this Saga that I love, from my fellows in arms. Hell, I WELCOME opinions that differ from mine, because that's the meat of all good discussions =)

    Oh, and brace yourselves, this will be long =)

    Now...

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think that starting the Saga where Lucas chose to start it was a bad idea...in fact it was quite a good one. It's just the execution that bugs me, resulting in a finished product that I feel does not live up to its full potential. Now I know there has been alot of PM bashing over the years, and that's not what I'm trying to do. I still mostly enjoy the movie, and always have, for its cool parts, and will rewatch it and accept it as the beginning of the saga for years to come. However, I just feel that, as is, TPM has less to contribute to the saga overall than what was revealed in the Clone Wars. Not to mention that it has a weaker script.

    Before I get into the flaws, I just wanna say that I enjoyed the political maneuverings in TPM. That was very cool, and I love how Lucas isn't telegraphing the Sidious/Palpatine connection. I also love the effects, Qui Gonn and Obi Wann, and the lightsaber duel. I don't even mind the midi chlorians. And, I love the idea of the prophecy and the virgance and all that. So alot of cool things were introduced in TPM...but I love the actual idea of the movie more than the actual movie itself. The main problem is that Lucas just tried to make it too light. I can understand trying to make a lighter first movie, especially considering that the other two are just gonna get consecutively darker, but there is no need for that creature to fart in Jar Jar's face. And therein lies the problem, parts of TPM are just too infantile. Not even the much-reviled Ewoks stepped in poop. In other words (again, AS IS, meaning the way it turned out) there's nothing in TPM that warrants an entire film being made about those events. With the way he executed the story, Lucas has failed to convince me that this is where the Saga needed to begin.

    I'll get into the biggest reason why I think TCW is better than TPM later. For now, I want to touch upon some of the individual comments reagarding my "hypothetical trilogy" that I've seen:

    Yes, TPM introduced us to all of our favorite characters in a proper fashion. ATOC, as is, already assumes that you met these characters. But remember, in my hypothetical trilogy that has AOTC as episode one and TCW as two, I kept on stressing the word TWEAKING. Obviously, that means alot of things would have to be added or shuffled around, and some of these tweaks would obviously include proper character introductions. What I meant to say was that OVERALL the story could remain pretty much the same and still make for a great introductory episode, and with the right amount of reworking, it could have been a better introduction than TPM.

    Now, someone else said that I proposed alot of exposition in my revamped AOTC storyline to explain the backstory, which is boring. Well, as is, the way that the middle part of the TPM is depicted (the Tatooine stuff) is boring. That could have all been summed up simply with something like "Remember Anakin we found you as a slave...your mother still loves you..." or some version thereof. In the same way that Alec Guiness got away with explainig the rise and fall of Anakin and the CLone Wars themselves in ANH, similar things could have been done in my revamped AOTC. It worked then, it could work again. And someone else said that Star Wars was about the fall and redemption of a human being, not just about battles. I whole heartedly agree. The entire subplot of Clone Wars shows exactly that. Anakin's fall is fleshed out. We see him go on his final trail and fail it. We see him abuse his power, with Assajj Ventress (who is not a Sith by the way, but is merely strong in the Force and wants to be considered a Sith)and with the soldier
  9. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    Your entitled to your opinions, however I take issue with the following,

    "TPM has less to contribute to the saga overall than what was revealed in the Clone Wars. Not to mention that it has a weaker script."

    Study scripts, study what makes good ones. The script of Menace is far more dynamic, deep and interesting then that of Attack of the Clones. You can call this an opinion, but I think most people will agree with me.

    One can say a lot about TPM, but it really didn't suffer in terms of script (AOTC did to a large extent) The weakness in TPM was it's humor, not it's script.

    "Now, TPM as we know it just has too many flaws. As I said before, we have Jar Jar's comedy hour, involving poop jokes, pratfalls, and fart jokes."

    I agree and dislike that part of the film. In the end though, the bathroom humor amounts to about five seconds of the film. There is three seconds of stepping into crap, and another few seconds of the animal farting. Five seconds really can't destroy an entire film. Your proposing we change AOTC to add in exposition, why not just change TPM to remove the few seconds of poor humor?

    "A podrace that is exceptionally well done, but is just ten minutes of eye candy that doesn't further the plot."

    I agree it was well done, but it was far too long. However you're proposing that Lucas create two films based around the CW cartoon, which for the most part is eye candy which doesn't move the plot along. How can you support that but be in opposition to the podrace? For me, I don't like either the pod race or two films based on CW. So it is consistent.

    Clone Wars cartoon for the most part is action, bombings, battles, destruction, chaos. I watched two episodes of it and grew far too bored. I want a plot.


    -Seldon
  10. Joeykin_Starrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    "Study scripts, study what makes good ones. The script of Menace is far more dynamic, deep and interesting then that of Attack of the Clones. You can call this an opinion, but I think most people will agree with me.

    One can say a lot about TPM, but it really didn't suffer in terms of script (AOTC did to a large extent) The weakness in TPM was it's humor, not it's script."

    Well, I'm a film major, and am very passionate about film, so I've been studying film and film scripts all my life. Sure, that doesn't mean that I automatically know what makes a good script and what doesn't, but I do know that when your main character is poorly conceived, then everything else, no matter how good it may be, doesn't really matter. And that is the key difference between the scripts for TPM and AOTC, and concurrently, the Clone Wars. Anakin is compelling and well developed in AOTC and CLone Wars. That is not the case with his character in TPM. Despite some moments of clunky dialogue, we learn alot about Anakin in AOTC, in terms of how he thinks (his stance on politics, his belief that Obi Wan and the council are holding him back, his desire to control things, to stop people from dying, etc.). More importantly, we see him start to Fall, as he massacres an entire village. The Clone Wars continues his Fall and character dvelopment, and shows him being chipped away by the Dark Side, in a very subtle and exciting way, through his actions and decisions. In TPM we basically just learn that Anakin was a slave and that he has a high midchlorian count and that he's a good pilot...a setup that's not worth a two hour movie.

    And "dynamic" is something that the script of TPM is not. It literally chugs to a halt when they get to Tatooine. They stay there far too long. All danger of the blockade and potential war and Amidala's people dying is put aside for pretty much the whole time they are there. Sure they make mention of it so we don't forget what's happening on Naboo, but there's no sense of danger, because among other things, Lucas puts the Naboo stuff on hold and makes room for a ten minute podrace. It should have been a three to five minute podrace, giving us more room for (and this is just a hypothetical example) something like Anakin and Obi Wan starting to get to know each other on Amidala's ship, or something to that efect. Instead the characters are sacrificed for ten minutes of eye candy. That said, the purpose of the Tatooine part of the movie is to try and focus on Anakin a bit, but since the kid is a bad actor and is poorly written, and since there is no sense of danger or of a ticking time clock, it makes for uncompelling viewing. So I stand by what I said...TPM has a poor script. And, perhaps this is all just my opinion, but from the people I've talked to and from what I've read, AOTC largely seems to be considered the better of the two prequels.

    "I agree and dislike that part (the humor) of the film. In the end though, the bathroom humor amounts to about five seconds of the film. There is three seconds of stepping into crap, and another few seconds of the animal farting. Five seconds really can't destroy an entire film. Your proposing we change AOTC to add in exposition, why not just change TPM to remove the few seconds of poor humor?"

    It wasn't JUST the bathroom humor that bothered me, although the bathroom humor is among what bothered me the MOST. I singled out those instances because they were indicative as to what was wrong with TPM AS A WHOLE. I said that many parts of it were too infantile, and used the bathroom humor to justify my point. For another example of this infantilism, we have Jar Jar's backstory. He was banished because he was clumsy. Not becuase he did something wrong, not because he was a thief or something, but because he was clumsy. And we are constantly reminded of this fact everytime he shows up on screen...he makes a ruckus in Watto's shop, he gets electrified by Anakin's podracer, he bumbles his way through the ending battle. It is all painfully unfunny, and it takes up too much screentime. Addit
  11. Master_Gallia Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2004
    star 2
    The CW cartoons are adding to what's already here. If you were to make that the starting point, you'd still need to lay things out as the case in TPM. Not everything shown in TPM can be reduced to dream sequences and dialog flashback. In ESB it wasn't necessary to go into the Jedi council, Midiclorians, younglings etc. because it had already been stated that the Jedi we're "destroyed" by the Empire. The point was Luke needed to continue to gain knowledge of the force (enter Yoda). Having TPM start as it did is no different that ANH starting where it did. In ANH we're given everything we need to understand the story. The Empire is evil (destruction of a planet). We see Darth Vader force choke an officer, and we're given a tutorial on how the force works etc. GL decided that this isn't just the story of a random Jedi gone bad. That being the case, TPM deals with the circumstances around Anakin being found (since the Jedi weren't looking for him). After finding him, why the Jedi we're reluctant to train him. These things taking place in the context of corruption in the Senate and the reemergence of the Sith.

    IMHO having these movies start off with Anakin already being a Jedi doesn't give the same since of loss once Anakin turns to the dark side. The lighthearted nature of TPM will ROTS that much more devastating.
  12. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    The saga has to convey the complete story of Anakin and it begins on Tatooine. Once a slave, always a slave in his case.
    You've aruged that Anakin is a flat character in TPM, I don't see that. He is defensive about his social status. He has an attraction to older women and a need to help people. His intuition in regards to Qui-Gonn is shown along with his skills as a pilot and builder. He is show to be a friend to 3P0 and Kitster and also to have a spirit of adventure. The boy has ambition and determination. He is fearful for his mother, and hopeful about his future. He tries to listen, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Also show is his curious nature and his cautious side. To say that Anakin isn't a dynamic character in the film is to ignore the facts.

    Besides Anakin we meet a colorful bunch of characters. The determined and fearless Amidala. The wise, sapient Jedi Master Jinn. The headstrong yet intelligent Obi-Wan. The mysterious Palpatine, the clumsy Jar Jar....all of the characters are very real in the film.

    Your comments about Jar Jar and Nute Gunray are a matter of opinion. The fact that you don't care for them, doesn't mean they are bad.

    "The lighthearted nature of TPM will ROTS that much more devastating."

    Agreed!


    -Seldon
  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    After watching all of the Clone Wars cartoons, chapters 1 to 25, I was struck with an epiphany. With minor tweaks, and transplanted to live action, the story told in the Clone Wars cartoons would have made a better entry to the prequel trilogy than the Phantom Menace.

    I disagree. The CW cartoons are cool but they are best off as they are: supplemental material.

    By the way, there is ONE poop joke and ONE fart joke in TPM. Combined, they take up maybe five seconds of screen time. I didn't even notice the poop joke until someone pointed it out.

    I get tired of people acting like TPM is full of bathroom humor on the order of "Scary Movie" or an Adam Sandler movie.

    IMO this thread is redundant.
  14. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
    "The lighthearted nature of TPM will ROTS that much more devastating."

    I agree with this as well.
  15. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Study scripts, study what makes good ones. The script of Menace is far more dynamic, deep and interesting then that of Attack of the Clones. You can call this an opinion, but I think most people will agree with me.

    I agree TPM is a better script, but not enough so. TPM has a good script, but not a good script for an intro movie, which is what TPM is suppose to be. ANH is still the only decent intro movie.
  16. Jedi_Steve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 2
    I definitely can understand aspects of your original point. I often got a similar feeling towards the development in Anakin's character in the CW cartoon in that even some of the smaller moments had a greater effect on my feelings for his character than did others in TPM and AOTC. I have to admit that was one element that the cartoon really nailed perfectly for me (I could go into this more specifically but this is more of a TPM focused forum). However, TPM (even with its flaws) still seems to be needed. Although I can see a reworking of AOTC's story and character structure as being a pretty interesting possibility, I would still feel that the sense of tranquility, elegance, and grace of the galaxy and Republic of Episode I would be missed. The political corruption of Palpatine, and the Republic as a whole, and its origins in such a pure and beautiful place as Naboo was a brilliant decision in my opinion.

    Also, the childhood innocence conveyed through Anakin and Padme's early relationship, in the moments it was handled well (there were several times where it was for me personally), are very important to their downfalls in ROTS. I do agree that Anakin's character as a child was still lacking something however, and I think it would have been more compelling and effective if he had shown some sort of connection with or discovery of the force within himself instead of seemingly saving the day by chance. Even if the force was intended to be what was guiding him, I still believe that it did not come across that way in the film's execution.

    Also, leaving TPM's story to expositional material would disrupt the saga's narrative symmetry. With TPM, the story begins on a small scale- Naboo Conflict, Anakin's Discovery, Palpatine's beginnings- with AOTC and ROTS (and the CW cartoon itself) the story expands dramatically. The same pattern can be found with ANH- starts off small- Tatooine, Luke and Obi-Wan's paths connect, the formal introduction to the Rebel Alliance and a more focused conflict (Death Star). With ESB and ROTJ the story expands exponentially. Starting with AOTC and the CW seems to be a bit much to handle as an introduction, and would break the saga's story arc.

    TPM is definitely far from a perfect film, and much could have been done differently. However, its central structure, political and sociological background, and goals for character introduction and early development really are essential to the PT and saga's story in that they need to be first seen and experienced to then be lost in ROTS with the deepest impact.
  17. Joeykin_Starrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    It's ok Jedi Steve, I babble too, and I'm about to babble again =)

    Now, remember, I never said that TPM wasn't needed. I said that in its current form, it does not feel needed. In fact, I said that it was a cool idea to start the Saga at that point in time. And I definitely think that alot of what was included in the final product is cool. And I also definitely understand what everyone is saying about the light tone of PM being a contrast to ROTS. I got it, it makes sense, and they are all valid points.

    However...

    My main point of this whole thing was comparing TPM AS IS to the Clone Wars AS IS. CONSIDERING THE FINAL PRODUCTS THAT WE WERE GIVEN FOR BOTH, I feel that TPM is inferior to CW, in terms of what each contributes to the Saga, and how each fits into the storyline. Again, taking into account the way TPM turned out in its current incarnation, Lucas didn't convince me that the story should have been started there, because TO ME, most of the important things were mishandled (again, mostly Anakin's storyline/character). SO, there is nothing in that movie now that convinces me that there should be an entire two hour movie based around these events. Yes, I think he shoulda made the tone lighter in TPM than the next two episodes, to illicit said contrast...but he made it TOO light for my tastes at times, and thus, it slid into the realm of childishness. Yes, it was cool to see Palpatine commit his first true manipulation in the Senate, and yes Qui Gonn is a cool character, and yes, the lightsaber duel was awesome, and yes, it was nice to see the "ideal" period of the Galaxy...but despite all of these things, what was MOST important FOR ME was to be able to connect with Anakin, and I didn't. And none of those good traits I just mentioned is enough to balance the rest out, because FOR ME Anakin is the center of the PM and the Saga as a whole. I would have preferred a mishandled "manipulation side plot" or a mediocre lightsaber duel than a mishandled main character. So, AGAIN, AS IS, I connected with Anakin more in CLone Wars than in PM.

    Would I have rather connected with him in PM? Of course, because that is the beginning of the Saga, and an 'official' entry in the Prequel Trilogy, whereas Clone Wars is meant to be a supplement. However, the truth is that Anakin, in my mind, was handled better in Clone Wars, plain and simple. It's a shame that TCW is merely considered as supplemental material, because in their current incarnations I would have liked to have seen things reveresed. That is all.
  18. Jedi_Steve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 2
    I understand J_S, and definitely agree with you to a certain extent. I feel the Anakin in the CW cartoon is handled a lot more genuinely and effectively than his character in TPM. That I agree with, and he is incredibly important as you say. I can totally understand where you're coming from in that failing to connect with Anakin in TPM can make it difficult to connect the film as the saga's beginning, in its current form. The CW cartoon does have some great character development, although it often comes in short increments. I love it. I do agree that it is often of better quality than a lot of Anakin's development and performance in TPM and wish that it could have been as effective in the film, although what's done is done. Just glad the film is there to enjoy even with its problems. As you've said, its always fun to hypothesize and consider things, thats what makes all of this all the more enjoyable and engaging :)
  19. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    My thoughts,

    The earlier ch. of the CW cartoon I did not like so much, it was too much action, too little about characters and the Jedi suddenly were demiGods.
    But ch. 21 and 22 were much better, more character work, more story, more time spent on Ankins and Obi-Wan relationship. The longer runing time is key here, with 2-3 minutes there is not so much you can do but with 12-13 min and now you can.

    As to your idea about making CW EP II, it has possibilites. I think that you could rework TPM and AotC into one movie. You can still have Anakin on Tatooine but have him slightly older so the romance with Padme and the friendship with Obi-Wan can start.
    The TF could be the separatist, Dooku could be in it as a more good guy, you could still have Naboo but have it be the start of the Clone Wars. The CW cartoons would also have to be reworked considerably, less Uber God jedis and more character work.

    But this is just idle speculation, the two PT movies do work, a few nits aside.

    Regards
    Nordom
  20. General_Grievous1138 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2004
    star 2
    YOu couldn't Have no TPM.

    And there is a lot of importance with Qui-Gon in RotS

    So u can't through him out.
  21. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    In my opinion Clone Wars cartoon is a long boring action sequence, which isn't even an interesting action sequence. The characters are flat, and the show accomidates to someone who has no attention span what so ever. The scenes change every ten seconds. I find it painful to watch.

    You can't compare that to a theatrical film like The Phantom Menace.
    Clone Wars (in the movies and novels) is boring without the character study, and you can't study the characters without The Phantom Menace which makes them all real.

    -Seldon
  22. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Forget about the fact that without TPM and AOTC to setup the characters, the story, the confict and everything else, the Clone War cartoons would make no sense.

  23. Joeykin_Starrunner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 1
    I think you guys have short attention spans Darth Seldon, cause you seem to be missing the point of what I'm trying to say here.

    I never said that we didn't need character intros in the prequels, or that it shoulda just started in the midst of the wars. I said that with some accomodations, AOTC shoulda been the intro to the series. And I never said that CW was better than AOTC. What I said was that it was better than TPM. CW would flow better from the end of AOTC, and the two complement each other more, and CW would make for a better entry into the trilogy as a live action movie than TPM. That's what I'm getting at here.

    I think we need AOTC more than we need TPM. AOTC shoulda been Episode 1, and CW shoulda been Episode 2, and they shoulda made the events of PM into the 25 episode cartoon series. That's what I've been saying from the beginning. Of course we need intros, and AOTC could have been reworked to do just that.

    As for the CW cartoon having no character development...saying that is ignoring the facts, or a simple case of being close minded and not daring to suppose that there just might be a flaw in a STAR WARS movie. God forbid. There is character development in CW. It certainly could be built upon, sure, I said that from the beginning as well, but what we ARE given is way more substantial than the any of the development in TPM. I mean, you don't see Anakin going off alone to fight Asajj and defying Obi Wan yet again as character development? You don't see him defeating her by giving into his anger as character development? What about Episode 21, where Obi Wan actually sticks up for Anakin and says that he should be made a knight, and the subsequent scene where he and Anakin talk about Qui Gonn, and about how Obi Wan feels that Anankin should be made his equal? Or how about that entire episode that centered on Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship on the war front, where they actually joked around with each other, and seemed like comrades, and for once, didn't argue? And then there's the last few episodes, that showed Anakin's Final Jedi Trial of the Spirit. Obi Wan was trying to teach and guide him the entire time. Everything he said strengthened their bond. And then Anakin goes to the cave and receives the vision of himself as Darth Vader. Then he abuses his power once again in freeing the kidnap victims. Then we have the last scene, where Obi Wan is trying to counsel Anakin, and tells him that the greatest test a Jedi must face is knowing himself. And though it is not overtly telegraphed, we plainly see that Anakin is bothered by what he learned about himself in that cave. Anakin saw Vader, and at that point in his life, was actually scared and bothered by the fact that he could turn into that.

    You don't see any of that as character development? Well, I see all that as more substantial and beneficial than anything we learned about Anakin in the entirety of TPM. TCW built on the character we came to know in AOTC, and we see the character development actually happen ON SCREEN, as opposed to the ten year off screen gap that occurs between TPM and AOTC. Anakin is way more interesting as an adult, in my opinion, and that's where the story should have started.

    Of course Darth Vader had a childhood. And so did you, and me, and heck, so did Luke, and Chewie, and Han Solo, and Greedo, and Jabba the Hutt. Everyone had a childhood.

    Darth Vader is my favorite character, and I was stoked when I found out that the Prequels would divulge his origins.

    However, the Vader childhood WE ARE PRESENTED WITH is not as interesting as the Vader adulthood WE ARE PRESENTED WITH, or shall I say, what leads him to his descension into the Dark Side. Was focusing on his childhood a good idea? Yes. Was it executed well? No...everything involving Anakin in TPM was handled poorly. Thus, while I do not hate TPM, I can never fully connect with it because my favorite character, and the character whom I feel is the focus of this six picture Saga, was not handled well. Thus, AS IS, I could do without it, and make do with anothe
  24. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Here's what I posted about your comments in the AOTC Forum:

    Joeykinn Starrunner

    I completely agree. People grousing about the need to see him at 9 also miss the point that Lucas then jumps way ahead to depict a completely changed character for AOTC.

    There's now a huge gap where we don't see this stuff happen.

    Some character development. It all occurs off-screen.
  25. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Ok, three of these threads are too much. That qualifies as spam. We'll leave the one in SSSW open for those who want to continue the discussion.
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