Rebels Clones (Stormtroopers) to see in Rebels?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes, Jan 4, 2014.

?

Who to see?

Rex ( Most likely dead though) 11 vote(s) 64.7%
Fives ( Fighting for Rebellion) 5 vote(s) 29.4%
Appo and other 501st 7 vote(s) 41.2%
Cody and Boil 9 vote(s) 52.9%
Commander Fox 3 vote(s) 17.6%
Thorn 1 vote(s) 5.9%
Cut Lawquane 8 vote(s) 47.1%
Gregor 6 vote(s) 35.3%
X2 and X1 if there canon. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. moonjump05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2013
    star 1

    Cody please. And really, Rebels should expand technically upon TCW with greater varieties of background extras- even stormtroopers can be different recruits when their helmets come off. They got a lucky break with the clone troopers and being able to use the same model times infinity.
  2. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I assume we will.

    It is a Civil War after all with the majority of the galaxy seeing the Empire as a legitimate successor government to the Republic, while the Rebellion is led by politicians trying to restore the Republic.

    I can see clones falling on either side of that divide, which if I recall is what Filoni has alluded to being the case. I don't have the source in front of me, but in one of the statements made about what happened to the Jango clones, I think either Filoni or Pablo had stated that some went on to train the new recruits while others became disillusioned with the Empire.

    If the clones were indoctrinated to love the Republic, that doesn't preclude the possibility that some clones see the Empire as the legitimate evolution of the Republic, while others see the Rebellion as representing the legitimate government.

    While I hope that Rex is dead by the time of Rebels to explain why Appo surpassed him in command, if any good Rebel-aligned clones appear in Rebels, I'm guessing Rex will be among them - possibly being established to have been ahead of the curve and deserting the Republic before ROTS (which is just an awful idea IMO, but they COULD do it).
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 6, 2014
  3. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

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    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    How old were the clones in AOTC, 20? With accelerated aging, they would be, what, 56 in Rebels? *sigh*

    Nah, there needs to be a distinction made between the trilogies, and the clones should only be around during the "Clone Wars" and not during the "Rebellion". I can understand that people have fell in love with these clone characters, but they to need let go and accept that they were a thing of the past. In fact, it makes them even more interesting, knowing that they're life was short — which is sort of like the replicants in Bladerunner.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Jan 6, 2014
  4. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Do the clones only have accelerated growth up until maturity, or do they continue with accelerated aging throughout their entire lives?
  5. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    We don't know how long after ROTS clone breeding continued.
  6. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I'm OK with there not being clones, I just hope it is addressed as to why there aren't clones anymore - with a more logical answer than Pablo's (or was it Dave's?) off the cuff explanation that they are too individualistic and not as obedient/reliable as patriots, which just seems waaaay to counter-intuitive not to mention contradictory to what made the clones so appealing in the first place, that they could be genetically manipulated and raised in a controlled environment from birth to get them to believe whatever the hell Palpatine wanted them to believe.

    An explanation like Battlefront II's regarding the Jango clones being too centralized and easily corruptible as weapons that could be turned against the government is a WAAAAAY better explanation IMO.

    I hope that what Pablo said isn't quite so literally the case.

    As far as growth acceleration. I know a lot of people mention that the clones would biologically be in there 60s or so by the time of ANH (40s in the case of new clones produced at the very end of the war). But was it anywhere stated or implied that growth acceleration could not be slowed down/stopped once they reach the desirable biological stage of development? It would make sense IMO for the Kaminoans to halt the process once the clones are biologically the equivalent of an adult, or otherwise you get 1/2 the useful years out of a clone.

    All Lama Su said was that growth acceleration was essential to ensuring that a clone mature relatively quickly, as opposed to waiting "a lifetime." I didn't think there was anything that implied that they couldn't manipulate the clones genetically to turn it off.

    On that note, how was the growth acceleration even administered? Was it something written in their genome? Or were they getting pumped full of hormones (something that they could easily be deprived of when at the desired age)?
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 6, 2014
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  7. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    I wonder did the growth acceleration also affect the development of their mental processes... Because by the time they entered combat they were perhaps 9 or 10 years old in real time (equivalent to 18 - 20 for them) but they behaved, acted and emoted much more like grown men than kids of 9 or 10. Seems to me their brains must have matured faster than normal too.
  8. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

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    Nov 20, 2010
    star 3
    Force Unleashed shows us the Dark Trooper phase zero project, which actually used aging clone bodies and turned them into cyborgs for the first phase of the later project as seen in Dark Forces. This implies that clones do indeed still age more raplidly.

    Of course, don't forget that Jango clones were still being produced until at least 12 BBY, per the Kamino rebellion. It was only AFTER the rebellion that templates started to change. Recruits may have been added either before or after this event, but some clones could still be as "young" as they were in TCW by the time Rebels, or even the OT pops up. Sure, they're no longer the majority of the army, that's fine. But I agree with others who say they probably won't all be gone, as not even Lucas wanted that.
  9. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Source

    Source

    Hence I hope to God that Leland and Pablo reign in these statements a bit and that they don't turn out to be this literal.

    There is something wrong IMO about establishing that someone that could be indoctrinated with whatever belief you want them to have since childhood would prove too individualistic and unreliable vs. some guy whose patriotic toward the Empire based on the past 14-15 years of political stability.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 6, 2014
  10. HEDGESMFG Force Ghost

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    I throw that in there with the "Han can't understand Chewie" statements. Poorly researched statements made on the whim of a moment that don't necessarily define the canon entirely. Even if Rebels never shows a single clone in storm trooper armor, it doesn't mean Battlefront 2's story never happened til Pablo and Lelnad say so and 'don't' back down, or the entire EU is announced by Disney as officially noncanon (Which... well... sadly isn't impossible anymore).
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  11. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

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    Why are people so adamant about wanting there to be clones during the OT?

    I mean, it's a contradiction to what Luke pretty much tells us in ANH — that the Clone Wars was a long time ago and not something that was still going on during his time.

    Damn, people just love these freakin clones, don't they? Yeah, they were cool, but to keep them around forever just makes them common and boring.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Jan 6, 2014
  12. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    To be fair, I think @Iron_lord (apologies if it wasn't him) has posted excerpts of articles from back during either the time frame of ANH's or ESB's theatrical release that labels the stormtroopers as being clones even so far back as the 70s.

    I can accept that the stormtroopers are no longer clones, what I want is a reasonable justification for WHY they are no longer clones. Not "just 'cuz" and not something so arbitrary as saying that random enlistees are better than clones that spent their whole lives being trained for that one sole purpose.

    Battlefront II had a decent explanation.

    Lucas himself back in 2005 had said that it happened in stages. First there were Jango clones, then clones from other templates, then recruits (because they were CHEAPER not BETTER).

    And Lucas' explanation then also made sense, in that there is no longer a galaxy wide war going on for the better part of two decades following ROTS, so he could afford to sacrifice quality for quantity, since he was using the stormtroopers to maintain order, not fight on the front lines in a massive conflict.

    Now Lucas apparently changed his mind and instead of the recruits being used merely because they are cheap, they are being used because the clones are too individualistic and patriots are apparently better...

    I don't really care one way or another how storylines play out, so long as they are good and make sense. And I think between Battlefront II and Lucas' 2005 MTV interview that there were perfectly adequate explanations, that I'm not eager to see thrown away in favor of an excuse that IMO is vastly inferior.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 6, 2014
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  13. Hobyoda42 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Hi

    Tarados: Hi there, welcome to the forums. If you would like to make an introduction or discuss anything not related to Star Wars, feel free to make a post here. Otherwise feel free to discuss your excitement, hopes, fears, etc. pertaining to the clone troopers' transition into stormtroopers here.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 6, 2014
  14. moonjump05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2013
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    All the EU sources seem to point to indefinite accelerated aging for the clones- to the point that a "cure" has to be actively sought out. This would presumably preclude any rapid aging hormones/drugs/food that would need to be continuously administered.

    Since the clones are the same genetically, this would suggest that they have different epigenomes, and that these epigenetic changes are associated with their aging. How the epigenetic changes are induced is not explained. Kaminoan engineering is probably responsible for the majority of it, but it doesn't seem permanent since it is mentioned that older clones exhibit a range in their aging phenotype- or the same chronologically aged clones are aged differently biologically- and that this biological age range increases with chronological age. So something in the environment changes the gene expression and subsequently the expressed phenotype.

    Since Identical twins are clones:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics#Twin_studies

    Biology in Star Wars FTW!

    "Too individualistic and unreliable" is relative. If both the costly clone and the some guy recruit have a similar level of individuality and unreliability- then you might as well cut your losses and go with the cheaper recruit.
  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It was.

    They were closer to the ANH release than the ESB one.
  16. Mange Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2003
    star 4
    Excuse me, but what Polish info?
    Last edited by Mange, Jan 7, 2014
  17. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

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    http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2013/11/rumor-clone-wars-bonus-content-details.html
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  18. Mange Force Ghost

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    Jan 11, 2003
    star 4
    Oh that! I had forgotten about that... Thanks Fives! :)
  19. Jedi Master Cheve Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2014
    We can have a mix of clones and regular recruits. That way we are all happy. There had to be a transition period.
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Indeed. Just because they stop growing them, doesn't mean they'd cease to use the ones they already have.
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  21. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I have no issue with the argument that cheaper was the route that the Empire decided to go.

    I have a problem with the notion that the clones are too unreliable.

    There were Hitler Youth that were ready to defend Berlin after Hitler had clearly lost control of the situation and all was lost. Normal kids that are swept up in a sense of nationalism and brainwashed. The clones were raised in a very controlled environment, they were all exposed to the exact same training, except in certain cases for things like ARC troopers vs. normal troopers, and perhaps variations depending on who is doing the training. So there would be some individuality, but there should be about zero unreliability. These are guys raised on Kamino brain washed to love the Republic. That's like having an American kid conditioned to love Brazil and be willing to fight and die for it. I'm sure it could be done, but there's obviously something wrong if you see something like that occur where some kid who has been in a controlled environment his whole life is willing to fight and die for a country he's never sat foot on.

    The idea that the clones and recruits are anywhere near each other psychologically or in their outlook is absurd to me. One has a more rational love for one's country (the recruits), since they have a stake in their country and its decisions. The other was merely manipulated into an irrational love for a country they don't know. And if they are willing to fight and die for it... If they have been indoctrinated that severely, they should be more like the Hitler Youth, but perhaps even way more irrational in their devotion and dependability over someone else who has the ability to consciously recognize when the battle becomes not worth fighting any more for them.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 8, 2014
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  22. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

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    star 3

    See......I can see how this point of view would make sense in theory - hence why Palpatine went this route for his plans...HOWEVER, I think in practice, it becomes a very different thing.

    Before I go on a huge rant about this, I want you to think about the film "Inception." Just keep that in the back of your mind as you read this (and please do read it because I really do think I have a strong point here (IMHO) - and I enjoy our debate that we've been having on this subject, @TaradosGon )

    Indoctrination and brainwashing work by creating a "story" of what is "true" and repeatedly enforcing that story as true in someone's head. From a very young age, they are told (And this definitely isn't comprehensive but I think its a general idea of what they would be told):

    a) The republic is the greatest system of government for this galaxy because -
    i) The republic allows freedom for all different planets and systems to exist as sovereign states, therefore allowing them to cater to the needs and rights of their individual people.
    ii) As sovereign states, these systems/planets are afforded the ability to exist in a greater arena and work together to maintain peace and provide aid across the galaxy.
    iii) The republic has stood (in its current form) for nearly 1000 years and in that time, it has learned what works for people. I.E. the traditions and sound foundation of the republic's long history provide the public the greatest, most refined form of government - far more experienced and durable than anything else that could be offered.
    b) What you are fighting for is not just the wonderful rights and freedoms that the republic offers, but you are fighting directly against a group of confederates who wish to rule over worlds not out for peace but out for greed and power. The Confederates are Evil because -
    i) Their leader is a lying tyrant with a proven history of aggression towards the innocent and past that includes betrayal of his friends, a lack of fortitude in seeking honor and a will powered only by selfishness.
    ii) Their commanders demonstrate time and time again that they also only care for themselves and not the people they claim to fight for, nor the militia's that they recruit.
    c) The system that you fight under and also for is a system of structure, organization, planning and ultimately peace whereas the enemy's system is that of chaos and continual conflict. This system of structure and ultimately peace is no better demonstrated through the following examples -
    i) YOU! The GAR is the greatest example of structure and discipline. Only through following orders that come from those with greater experience and knowledge can great things truly be saved and also achieved.
    (I suspect their indoctrination would focus heavily on why following Orders is important to maintain this system of peace and achievement. However, I do not necessarily think that this topic would focus on a) always follow Jedi or b) this is Order 66 but we'll find out about that in the TCWBC I suppose)

    So I guess thats just an idea of what they would be told, obviously an "etc." belongs at the end. Now, moving on...

    The biggest flaw that I can see in implementing this theory of: clones + indoctrination = all completely obedient/none too individualistic, Is that they were told these things - yes they were given logic and examples i'm sure to help convince them that this "story" was "true" but, ultimately they did not learn it for themselves through experience - they learned it in a classroom or pod or one of those crazy rooms from "The Clockwork Orange" where their eyeballs were held open - Regardless of where or the delivery method, it was just that: a message. It was not a life lesson learned from experience.

    Palpatine's hope (I'm sure) was that once they got out on the battle field, these teachings would be reinforced by personal experiences such as seeing first hand the damage that the CIS was doing to people and witnessing first hand the great things that the Republic was doing for people. Herein lies the ultimate mistake of the clones: When they got out on the battlefield, everything changed; as things always do in war. Your beliefs become tested, your will tried and at the end of the day, no matter what someone imprinted deep within your mind as a "truth," the power of loss is to stronger to deny. (as evidenced by Anakin's fall) The fact of the matter is that something may happen out there that may be absolutely contradictory to what you have been "breed to believe," but if the brainwashing/indoctrination is strong enough, you will simply deny what you see with your own eyes and continue to deny it to your grave...Until, your denial hits home.

    The moment you lose someone or something close to you due to something you had been denying existed, your entire notion of what is "true" is called into question. Its not a matter of how strongly they were indoctrinated, it is a matter of how strongly they can be betrayed by that indoctrination. The fact of the matter is that war reveals truth much more boldly than any other force. If these clones were able to think creatively and assess situations with logic; If they were able to feel compassion, sympathy and empathy for the peoples and ideals they fought for and beside; If they were able to be relational and rational and creative, they would always be vulnerable to experiencing the "real truth" for themselves - regardless of what they were told.

    Indoctrination is not all powerful. You brought up the Hitler Youth as an example of powerful indoctrination. What percentage of those who were in the Hitler Youth do you believe still hold everything they were told then to be absolute in its accuracy? Do you think that because they were indoctrinated back in the late 30's early 40's that today, everyone of those children, now in their 70's/80's/90's still believes what they did then? Better yet, do you believe 100% of them still believed it in 1950? 1960? How "reliable" is it?

    So then to the subject of recruits -

    "Fine," you may say, "They may not all be 100% reliable, but they're more reliable than any recruit or conscript would be!" This is where "Inception" comes back into play...
    If you've seen the film, you'll know (don't worry no spoilers if not) that one notion that they focus on is that of "original vs. taught" ideas. That in order for an idea to truly take root in someone's brain, they must have come up with it themselves - no matter how deep you "place" it - it will always be foreign and the ability to trace back an idea to its "inception" will make it much harder to deny. This is my ultimate point.

    This is not to say that if you came up with a thought on your own - through your own experiences and emotions, then it is bulletproof and you will always believe it. Everyone is always susceptible to changing their hearts and their minds - but I do contend that ideas that are "your own" will always be harder to dispute than ideas that you are "taught" - no matter the nature of that teaching.

    Therefore, I hold the view that volunteer members of the military are always more inclined to "hold true" to the government than indoctrinated non-citizens.
    Furthermore, "recruited conscripts" (by draft or other means that are not voluntary) would be even more inclined to toe the party line because of fear - the could be intimidated and threatened into fighting - they would have far more things to lose than the clones and the Empire could easily hold things over all 18-25 year olds to serve in the military.

    To me, clones are so much ore of a wild card than anyone realized. It is much more in line with "real-life people" that they would be less reliable and I am very happy that TCW has teased us with that and look forward to the possibilities that it brings in "Rebels."

    And I'm done.....Thank you for reading!
    Last edited by Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes, Jan 8, 2014
  23. moonjump05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2013
    star 1
    Both the clones and recruits are presumably indoctrinated to fight and die for nationalism, how well it sticks is up to intrinsic individual differences like personality, temperment, values, etc..., personal gains and losses as a result of following that path, outside influences, previous experiences, etc, etc, etc...

    All of these factors should be weighted against each other. For example, the clones have a lot more indoctrination than the recruits do, but they have much higher losses/gains ratio than the recruits as well. So depending on the individual, that balance may tip the decision to stay or go.

    And as far as unreliability for the clones goes, in general we know that the vast majority of them were completely reliable because the vast majority of them stay and fight in the Empire. I would think that would be the case for the vast majority of recruits as well- they join up and stay. We know the opposite is true as well- there were clones and recruits that left although in much smaller numbers. However, if we use the above example of weighing the pros and cons against each other for the clones versus the recruits- the unreliability of the clones is much more costly than the unreliability of the recruits.
  24. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Thanks for the thoughtful responses @Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes and @moonjump05

    Fives: I haven't seen Inception, and I get what you're trying to say. But in the case of the Hitler Youth, once Nazi Germany was defeated, there would have been attempts made to rehabilitate individuals of ideas such as racial superiority and such.

    Racism was common in the US, even not so long ago that individuals of that era are still alive today. Are all of them still racist? No. But there have been efforts to defeat such ideas. I'm not sure that the Hitler Youth would have ever snapped out of their indoctrinated beliefs had Nazi Germany won the war. Palpatine's Republic won The Clone War and became an Empire, I couldn't imagine indoctrinated soldiers - without an outside influence/ideas permeating to the same degree that post-war Germany would have experiences - just spontaneously arriving at the conclusion that this is not what they signed up for and turning away from it when Palpatine is at the height of his power.

    Also, to look at it exclusively as a fictional story and removing realism from the equation, I just think that clonetroopers --> stormtroopers is the exact opposite of what would have been more intuitive. Cloning is a controversial topic, especially when you get into matters of cloning humans, and even more so yet as far as cloning humans to serve as soldiers. You're not giving the clone a choice in the matter, and thus are treating it as subhuman and not enjoying all the rights of a "real" human (human born of sex).

    That kind of subhuman soldier seems more intuitive IMO as filling the ranks of the evil psuedo Nazi-meets-British Empire government that Palpatine is running. Patriotic volunteers seem more intuitive to a free Republic. This is tangential to a degree, but it just never sat well with me to begin with that the Republic didn't seem to care about having a slave army of clones that it treated as property to be bought and treated as subhuman by the Kaminoans.

    But then the "evil Empire" gets a bunch of loyal patriots.

    To me that just flies in the face of what makes more sense, not just from the viewpoint that Palpatine wants to control everything as much as possible, but also from the psychological effect that this imagery has on the audience out of universe.

    Clones seem more evil, morally ambiguous (if not outright wrong), etc. While patriots seem perfectly fine. And it's odd that the prior serve under the Republic while the latter serve under the oppressive regime, IMO.

    For instance, I really liked how the much similar matter was handled in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine's episode "The Abandoned." Their approach to the morality of cloning soldiers was far more rational, IMO and I craved TCW to tackle something similar (which I suppose is more appropriate for the missed opportunities thread) but then it's just awkward IMO to jump ahead 15 years in the timeline, with Dave's/Pablo's implication being that much of the transition has already occurred and that clones were ditched for whatever reason.

    In ST: DS9, there was a villainous government called "The Dominion" based on extreme order. They were led by the Founders, who were a species that existed in a liquid state but could shapeshift and were extremely xenophobic and conquered other governments to control them as part of an orderly society. The Founders were revered as gods by the Vorta, who were a cloned race that served the Founders and served as administrators and diplomats within the Dominion. And then below them were the cloned Jem'Hadar soldiers who also revered the Founders as gods, were bred to be dependent on a drug called ketracel white (which allowed them to be controlled), experienced rapid aging (just like the clones of Star Wars), and were engineered to WANT to fight.

    One of these Jem'Hadar is found as a child by the Federation which tries to assimilate the Jem'Hadar child (who again is aging very rapidly) into Federation society, showing him that he has freedom to do whatever he wants and follow his dreams, etc. But all he wants to do is fight and in the end, he is allowed to leave to rejoin the Dominion because they realize that there's really nothing they can do about this kid, he was bred to be a warrior and the only way to really prevent him from being dangerous is to hold him permanently merely for how he was engineered. Presenting the ethical dilemma of what to do with this boy who has been engineered to have this strong desire to be with his people and to pretty much be nothing but hostile. They either let the kid go free and give the enemy a soldier, or they seize the kid and hold him prisoner because he is doing what he can't help but do.

    The ethical issues of the clone army are something I feel should have been addressed in TCW, while the realization that the clones really are subhuman just as Lama Su implied in AOTC becomes apparent in ROTS when - as far as the audience can see - all the clones respond loyally to Order 66 without question. That even could have created a tragedy in TCW in that because the Republic DOESN'T do more to seek rights for the clones (as the Federation does for the Jem'Hadar) they never realize just how mentally "damaged" the clones really are, and so they never see something like Order 66 coming, whereas perhaps had they not taken the clones for granted and instead questioned the ethics behind it, then the Republic should have realized that the clones are not normal humans, they have an unhealthy preoccupation with all things war (in the EU, I've seen at least two incidences in which someone asks a clone what his plans are after the war and he merely responds to the effect of "whatever orders mandate"). At which point perhaps the Republic government could have counteracted Palpatine and eliminated his docile, completely loyal, accept all orders without question army.

    I feel like Rebels should have continued going in that direction, rather than writing the genetically altered clones prove too individualistic for the oppressive, evil Empire while Palpatine prefers a bunch of random patriots. Patriotism hinges on love for one's country, which can change. Indoctrination - while we've agreed can be undone - is more instilled at a very young age where for the most part beliefs might just be taken for granted.

    Tell a 30 year old atheist that there is a God, and you probably won't get anywhere and will be resisted by a rational desire for proof.

    Tell a 3 year old atheist (let's just say a kid who has just never been exposed to any kind of religion) that there is a God, and he might just accept it merely because he was told it's true. Kid's are extremely easy to manipulate and while the three year old might come to question his religion again at an older age, that can be reduced via continued outside reinforcement, surrounding that person with like minded individuals (essentially all the other clones instilled with the same beliefs), and then there is also the vague explanation that the clones are NOT as individualistic as a normal human being because they have been engineered to be more "docile." And while such bioengineering may or may not be realistic, it's a fictional universe and I felt like there was nothing to contradict that idea put forth by Lama Su until 6 years after the fact when TCW came out.

    Tell a 10 year old man-child clone that has been indoctrinated for loyalty, engineered for docility, and trained for war his whole life that the Jedi are evil traitors and must die, and it seems more rational to me that they'll just do this.

    Tell a 25 year old man that is enlisting to make a living and has 25 years of non-military life experience under his belt to frag his commanding officer, and I would be inclined to see more hesitation.

    Tell the prior to be involved in the destruction of Alderaan and maybe they'd do it without batting an eyelash, tell the latter who might have friends or family from Alderaan or be more sympathetic to their "countrymen" (other Republic citizens) and I'd see far more potential for disobedience.

    I would think that Palpatine would want the option that gives him the most control and least amount of room for disobedience.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jan 10, 2014
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  25. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

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    I think the Umbaran arc really opened my eyes to the possibility that some could reject things if they became influenced heavily enough from other sources (for instance, General Krell in the case of Fives and Rex). But I agree that it would take a lot of influence to get the vast majority to reject orders they viewed as "wrong" based on their personal life experience - still I think there would be "faulty" soldiers in the mix...(like Fives perhaps? ::crosses fingers::) and I suppose one could say "Well there were some defective clones - so this system isn't fool proof and its not economically feasible to pay this much for a system that isn't 100% foolproof all the time." So it comes down to a cost + non-loyal issue but much more heavily a cost issue that just makes the non-loyal 1% (if that) add more cons to the cost than pros. But Ultimately, it is all about money (with a small amount of extra support coming from the lack of positivity of the process). ;)

    Yea, good point. I can definitely see how the imagery is a little backwards and your way would make more sense thematically.

    Well.......Hopefully the Order 66 (beta) episode(s) of TCWBC can dive into all of this a little!!:D
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