Clones Too "Independent"?

Well, I'm afraid that the EU, regardless of how people feel about it, has a major influence on most fans. Most of us have read at least the novels and/or comics, so we have some experience with individualistic clones. As such, it will be difficult to launch an argument for AOTC's imagery in this environment. To their credit, though, the Republic comic series does (in my opinion) a good job of portraying clones that start out obedient but grow to gain character traits from their experiences and generals (Arc Trooper Alpha-17 and Commander Bly come to mind, I think). I agree that the Mandalorians seemed a little out-of-nowhere to me (I thought they were all but wiped out), though I like to read about them. Whether the progression seems forced or not is, as per usual, a matter of opinion, though I know you are fully aware of that.

You make a good point in that later-generation clones do not really resemble clones as they were introduced, but again, there's differing opinions on what makes a clone trooper (origin? Behaviour? Traits?) and how natural the progression was (smooth or sudden?). I admit, though, your arguments have gotten me interested in seeing at least some clone characters who are more rigid and cold than their counterparts. It could make for some good moments in the show where the more emotional clones argue with their rigid brothers.

As for my personal view, I like clones being individualistic, though I see the merits of broadening their personalities and including AOTC-esque clones. Introducing a wide variety of emotions and whatnot is something I'd like to see in the Clone Wars, particularly if those portrayals are likable (at least to me...I'm what you'd call a popcorn sci-fi fan, I guess XD).

Oh well. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. The best thing I can hope for is that you at least find some entertainment from the clones, or take solace in the fact that they aren't always the main focus...then again, Jar Jar's coming up in two weeks, so that's not a good point. XD

 

Yes there is, because you insist on misrepresenting AOTC.

They haven't. You can keep on saying that they have, but it won't make it true.

 

There are some interesting points brought up in this thread, but I do agree with many here that TCW overall is not going against anything set forth in AOTC. AOTC had little time to delve into the details of the clones' lives, and neither did ROTS. But ROTS did show us slightly more individuality in them, and it also showed some friendly interaction between them and the Jedi (especially Obi-Wan and Cody)... so it is logical that development like this could take place between AOTC and ROTS.

In AOTC we are basically shown the beginning of thier lives in the sterile environs of Kamino, and we are told of the training they receive. We only see them out in the "real world" when they have their first real battle on Geonosis... but we don't get a chance to see them after that point, reacting to what happened there or in any subsequent battles (let alone how they pass the time between battles at remote stations, etc.). There is a question of nature vs. nurture here, and nothing in their breeding or initial training would necessarily preclude the clones from developing personality differences or characteristics later. That would be further enhanced by the relationship they have with the Jedi, which we can see the Empire later "undoes" when stormtroopers have no color markings and never take off their helmets.

As others have said, being "more docile" and "less independent" than Jango Fett isn't really saying much. And as far as being "totally obedient, taking any order without question"... we are only shown the clones in TCW discussing being bored at their remote station, for example... never actually questioning orders and certainly not refusing them. This adherence to following orders will be fully demonstrated by Order 66, which incidentally is all the more painful to watch now seeing how the clones are becoming individuals and how they get along well with the Jedi.

 

Brennan,

First, you don't have to be combative and argumentative. Truly, I'm not your enemy. Just a person who looks at this issue differently than you.

In all honesty, I never clicked on the thumbnails, so I didn't see that there were subtitles.

But since you seemed to be missing the nuance of the quotes (i.e. the "more" and "less" than Jango), it doesn't seem like quoting the lines directly was a waste of time.

Indeed. But..I don't know that anyone is saying they overcame genetic limitations through osmosis, or some sort of meld with the Jedi. What Filoni himself has said is that since the Jedi respect all life, they choose to treat the Clones respectfully...which for them entails honoring the fact that though they are all essentially identical twins, they are still unique individuals.

But being unique...having unique variances in personality, taking on unique nicknames, etc....does not eliminate the fact that they have been modified to be more obedient. Taking a name and doing your hair a certain way does not equal disobedience.

So what Lama Su said doesn't seem to be a lie, or even hyperbole.

Of course there isn't, because we don't have the data necessary to make such a determination. We've not seen a Star Wars universe where a clone army was created with no genetic modification. So we can't compare the two.

In logic, this phenomenon is called "hypothesis contrary to fact." And in the real world nothing can be proven using a hypothesis contrary to fact. In the real world we can't say "well, if X had not happened, then this different result would have occured" because we can never prove it. In fiction it's a bit different though. With fiction, writers could give us a glimpse into that alternate reality, allowing us to make such comparisons. But in this case they haven't.

So the lack of evidence that you correctly point out is a problem for folks on either side of the issue. You can't point to it and say it confirms your position. And folks disagreeing with you can't point at it and say it confirms their position.

It's a lack of evidence. And a lack of evidence seldom proves anything.

Perhaps they are. But here's where this whole "more" and "less" than Jango business comes in.

The clones are said to be less independent and more docile than Jango. But how independent and docile was Jango?

Here's my point: Perhaps Jango is so independent, aggressive, violent, etc., that when you take his DNA and produce clones of him that are less independent and more docile than he, what you end up with are guys who act a lot like characters in past war movies.



To assume that "more docile" and "less independent" means they'd be clones like you were expecting is just that...an assumption. Now, given what little information was available when AotC came out, it was a reasonable assumption. And since it's clearly an idea you like, it's even more expected that you'd interpret the lines that way.

The problem is, now there's more evidence. And that evidence doesn't gel with your initial assumption. It seems clear now that either 1) Lucas changed his mind (this was Lucas' idea for CW afterall), or 2) Your initial assumption was wrong.

No offense. This is just the logical reality of it.

 

Star Wars is pop entertainment. Always has been.

The advanced aging definitely hasn't been sacrificed. Think about it. If the first clones were created 10 years before AotC, and CW takes place a year or so later...then the oldest clones would be 11. If we take Lama Su's, "do it in half the time" comment literally, then the oldest clones would only appear to be 22 years old.


And not even bringing genetic manipulation into it one way or the other, there are still at least 3 reasons I can think of why there would still be a point to them being clones.

1. The Republic had no army initially. It takes time to recruit a sufficient number of soldiers, to train them, etc. But through cloning, many of those start-up issues are eliminated.

2. No need to worry about having to resort to a draft and all the problems that entails (people who wouldn't make good soldiers becoming soldiers, people dodging the draft). Anticipate you'll need more troops? Make more.

3. There's more to a good soldier than obedience. There are other qualities that a good soldier also needs. It would appear Jango had many of these. So by cloning a potentially good soldier, you're much more likely to end up with an army full of good soldiers.

 

The clones are not any different - in any way other than their appearance - than any stock characters in crappy war movies you can find in the $3 bin at Blockbuster. There's nothing to indicate they've been modified to be obedient and docile, and this is in direct contrast to their depiction in AOTC.

You guys obviously like this and it's clear that nobody is going to acknowledge any contradictions with AOTC. So this is a waste of my time, and I consider the matter closed.

 

The contradictions with AOTC exist only in your imagination, unless you have evidence you haven't yet disclosed.

 

1. We've had 5 episodes of the show. Maybe there'll be more nuance in the clones' portrayal down the road. I mean...5 episodes. It'd be tough to make them anything but stock characters (or, multiple duplicates of one stock character) in that short period of time.

Give it time. Maybe, at the minimum, they'll explore the fact that these guys all share the same DNA, and as a result should have at least the same type of similarity in personality that identical twins display in the real world. I think it would be good for them to explore that idea. And truth be told, if they don't, and the clones continue to turn out to be very different from each other throughout the run of the show, I too will be disappointed. It will be good for them to explore the genetic similarity, as well as the more docile and less indepentent than Jango deal. To not do so would be a missed opportunity in my estimation. Plus, it wouldn't explore the fact that these guys are all identical twins.

But I'm not sure if, in the grand scheme of things, this issue warrants you treating the folks on this board in the manner than you are.


2. Again, your "lack of evidence" claim cuts both ways. You can continue to repeat it, ad nauseum, but it doesn't make it any more useful in your argument. Yes, we have no evidence (save Lama Su's comments in AotC) that they are more docile and less independent than Jango. Nor do we have any evidence that they aren't more docile and less independent than Jango (since we don't know what Jango himself would be like as a soldier in the army). We have no evidence either way. So it is logically invalid for you to act like the lack of evidence is evidence. Surely you are rational and intelligent enough to acknowledge that.

Similarly, can you not acknowledge that it is at least possible that more docile and less independent than Jango doesn't mean, and never meant, personality-less computer-like flesh droids?

It may not be emotionally satisfying for you. Fair enough. You don't have to like it. You can still feel that they missed an opportunity to do something unique. But can you not acknowledge that such a thing is at least logically possible?


3. I'll say this again. Please try to listen and be respectful this time. The clones having different personalities isn't something I necessarily like. I find it interesting. But I'd find it interesting if they were more similar (interesting in a philosophical sense...not in a dramatic narrative sense). But it being something I actively like...I don't know that I'd go that far. I'm not all fired up that the clones are acting like the Dirty Dozen. I'm not outraged either. It is what it is...and the clone aspect of the Star Wars story isn't one that I have a big emotional investment in.

So again, despite what you are saying, I don't "obviously like this." It would be reasonable for you to not put words in people's mouths and thoughts in people's heads.

4. We're not acknowledging any contradictions because we (or at least I) don't see than any exists, technically speaking. A contradiction occurs only when two statements (or set of statements) cannot both be true in the same time and in the same respect.

"The clones are more docile and less independent than Jango," does not technically contradict, "The clones in CW show individual personalities."

....because it is possible that both portrayals can be accurate.



One last thing. In the world of Star Wars, people are more than just matter. They are, as Yoda put it, luminous beings

 

I have a couple of questions, DBrennan:

Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Kaminoans made certain claims which do not bare themselves out during the Clone Wars.

So, why exactly to you feel that something said by limited characters within the story should be taken as gospel?

Are they not fallible or possibly prone to exaggeration to hype their product?

 

Right, but it's all relative. They're simply more docile than their original host. The fact that the Clones never question a superior's orders would indicate that they are.

 

I was just reading The Art of Star Wars: Episode Two: Attack of the Clones, and I stumbled across a quote that reminded me of this thread.

When describing the appearance of the clones at the end of the movie, the author wrote (pg. 180):

"For the troops staging area, concept artists considered references of marching crowds; particularly Hitler's Nuremberg rallies and the fevered, impassioned masses immortalized in the chilling propaganda film, 'Triumph of the Will'."

I know the point that the Clones were modeled after Nazis was already thoroughly demonstrated before in this thread (such as its mention in 'The Legacy Revealed'), but this is just more evidence.

It's really a 180-degree turn. In the movies, the clones were murderous Nazis and instruments of tyranny. Now, the clones are noble, earnest, and heroic. (They've also all-but-abandoned the genetic modification angle, too, but let's not get into that again!)

 

It is all a matter of point of view.

Once you're looking at an institution from inside, things look a lot different. If you were to hang out with a bunch on nazi troopers in WW2, stationed at some small village, awaiting orders, you wouldn't see a pack of bloodthirsty evil bastards looking for innocents to slaughter, you would see a group of young friends, singing folk songs and sharing tales of romantic conquests and lost friends. With the clone troopers it's the same. If you're working alongside them, they can be very nice chaps, if you're on the wrong end of their blaster rifles, not so much.

 

I just wanna say that after reading through this very interesting thread, I was itching to jump ahead and post a response to the mentions of the changes of the clones being more like Allied troops and not Nazis. But it seems I'm about an hour or two late for that.

It's not as if the Allies invented commradery in the trenches. We look at WWII from a skewered perspective and it is reflected in our films. You equate them marching to Nazis, but even the Nazis were people. Many of them not war criminals but infantry following orders. The clones, no matter what we want to say about their DNA are humans. Humans undergo changes throughout their lives. Experiences change their perspectives and personalities. People can develop different traits over time, and it seems only natural that this would happen with these clones.

Furthermore, I was pondering the possiblity of genetic defects or problems with the cloning process. Could it be possible that somehow there could be a batch of clones with a chromosome or something out of place making them radically different mentally or otherwise? Could a single clone slip through without that little obedience gene (or whatever) in the mix? Would it be caught, or would it just enter the army like any other trooper and not be discovered until it decided an order didn't fit the scheme.

We know that the clones are preprogrammed with Executive Order 66, which essentially tells them that Jedi are now enemies of the Republic and need to be disposed of. Well, knowing that they serve the Republic, and they have to follow orders... at what point would conflicting orders be dealt with? Could, just by chance a Clone see the Chancellor's power as unlawful, and therefore his order 66 would be an unlawful order and then not carry it out based on logic? They are logical and creative--they have their own thoughts. If they could justify something legally in their minds and believe it to be in service to the Republic... anyway it's just another thought that's been spinning in my head as I was reading this thread.

Ultimately I don't see any contradiction between what we have now and the films. At least no more than we got from AOTC and ROTS. They only issue I can possibly see is the obeying orders without question part. Because, as creative and logical beings their brains would have to question certain things on some level, that would be why we'd have different ranks I would think. What's the point of rank if they are all the same and mindless? They need to be able to think on their feet, and I'd think that carrying out a direct order, and perhaps making an adjustment needed in battle are two different things. Otherwise, just use droids.

 

According to Dark Lord, it's not Order 66 that's preprogrammed, it's loyalty to the Chancellor.

 

Thanks, I'll have to reread that one... I remember enjoying it. But that said, the Chancellor isn't a constant (at least not yet). And even then, when he becomes the Emporer there is no Republic or Chancellor to be loyal to. I wonder if perhaps there could be some turmoil for a clone or two... depending on just how "independent" they can be.

 

They'll do anything at all to make them look more heroic. This means discarding everything that was said in the movies, and the makers of CW are perfectly cool with that (maybe it even makes them giddy with power: they get to re-write 'Star Wars!')

So, I'm sure that they'll say that the Jedi purge in ROTS wasn't really done by clones, it was battle droids dressed up like clones! And the Rebellion? Who else besides the clones could possibly stand up to the Empire (and they got some help from Ahsoka, of course). You think that Darth Vader killed the Emperor? Fool! It was the clones! And just who really helped Luke Skywalker out on the Death Star trench? Han Solo, you say? Well, that was only because the brave clones sacrificed and boarded the Millennium Falcon and forced him to turn around!

The show is also calling into question whether Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader were really even Jedis. Why didn't the two of them just fly around on Bespin? Why would it be a sacrifice for Luke to leap to a potential death in ESB when he could just fly?

The makers of CW clearly have no allegiance to the movies or to canon. They're re-writing 'Star Wars' history with each episode, and as long as the cartoon's making money for Lucasfilm (which should probably be another year or so, at which time the ratings will tank), they'll continue to do so.

 

I really think you need to tone down on the rhetoric. Sarcasm that blatant isn't exactly going to win people over to your point of view. Now, I can appreciate different points of view, and I would like it if they implemented a less than glowing view of the clones, but bear in mind that this is a show made not just for us, but for kids as well.

I also have to disagree with the idea that they want to rewrite Star Wars (unless that's sarcasm too...be careful you don't get giddy on 'righteous fury' yourself, lest you become what you fight against). Lucasfilms seems to be going out of its way to hire as many quality writers and producers as possible for this thing, and I doubt they'd let personal feelings dominate them. It's part of their job as writers. They work with the materials they're given and deal with edits and whatnot from the directors and producers.

The thing is, this isn't 'the science fiction dystopian world show'. This is 'the fantasy in space good versus evil show'. Cartoons that deal with that sort of Clones=Nazi analogy sort of thing can't really be found on Cartoon Network. Maybe suggestions to the writers that frequent these boards can lead to the creation of storylines that you find pleasing, but if you genuinely believe a program that includes kids in its demographic can accommodate that idea easily, you'd honestly be better off writing fanfiction or something.

Again, I agree your ideas are good. I just don't think they're the ONLY way, nor are they the ONLY GOOD way this series can be interpreted. If they're implemented, great. If not, it's not that big a loss to me. Being snide and derisive isn't going to help your cause, as it makes you come across as kind of a jerk.

 

Koonfan,

Maybe the reason that my posts are so heavy is because I think that I'm the only one here who either (a) remembers the movies at all, or (b) can spot the glaring contradictions between the movies and the TV show. I'm just amazed at how few people aren't even bothered by the fact that the movies are literally being torn up with each passing episode of TCW.

For instance, it was around episode #5 or #6 that the CW=WW2 formula became so obvious. And since that's the case, I realized that there'd never be any real recognition of the fact that the clones are servile murderers and that the CW is a giant scam. So I go to this board....and nobody at all had even mentioned the fact that they'd discarded AOTC. Not one whisper of contradictions.

So, maybe I'm being a little extreme, but I'm just trying to stand up for the integrity of the movies that I love. 'Cause nobody else is.

 

I actually do think the clones are a little too independent. It would be nice if in future episodes they put in some scenes of clones not being able to disobey orders no matter what or something like that.

 

Somebody agrees with me!

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/DBrennan3333/z-1.jpg]

 

Ok, so let me make it quite clear here. I am sure everyone here remembers the movies very clearly. As to spotting contradictions, that's a matter of opinion. Finally, TCW is not literally tearing up the movies, in all 9 episodes so far I haven't seen a single shred of torn-up celluloid flying across the screen.

I hate to repeat myself but... it's all about the point-of view, man! In the movies, the only moment we see the clones as "servile murderers" is once Order 66 is issued, and they turn on our heroes. Up till then they were just very good soldiers, very obedient, but also good comrades. In Ep3 GL even took the trouble of setting up how Obi-Wan and Cody were such good buddies, just so his cold betrayal after Order 66 would come out as much more poignant. The show is extending on it. By showing the clones fraternizing among themselves and the Jedi, it makes it that much more horrible when they suddenly become servile murderers just with a simple change of perception of who their enemies are. Once again, clones are not evil per se, their only problem is that they will obey orders without question. Therefore they are just as "good" as the orders they receive.

Granted, I would like it if at some point in the show we had a bit of foreshadowing of their cold-bloodedness, by having them obbeying some questionable orders. But that should be the exception, not the norm. In both the Jedi and the audience's point of view, the clones should remain "good guys" until Order 66.

 

Gry Sarth,

Okay, I did misuse the word "literally". (Of course, if the PT movies were being literally torn up, we'd see hard drives and discs flying all over the place, not celluloid.)

Many fans have cited Obi-Wan's "friendship" with Cody in ROTS as proof that the clones were all great. But, I mean, I really didn't spot any friendship. They exchanged, I think, two familiar remarks with each other, and that was that.

But looking back to AOTC and to the totality of the clones' portrayal - and just their function in the story - I think it's clear that the Jedi and the audience were, at best, reluctantly accepting of the clones' existence. The clones' portrayal (and also the portrayal of the Clone Wars, "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.") are just totally different than what we're being fed in the cartoon.

If you polled fans after they'd seen AOTC and ROTS, I don't think too many would say that they thought that the Clone Wars was actually World War 2 and that the clones themselves were all fantastic heroes. They'd probably say, correctly, that the Clone Wars was a giant scam and that the clones were automaton murderers cultivated, born, and trained to murder Jedi and turn the Republic into a tyrannical empire.)

 

Alright, I pose this question to you: Did Terminator 2 "tear up" the original Terminator? Was the T-800 completely misrepresented? I mean, after watching the first film, nobody would consider Arnold's character charming, a good pal, much less a father figure, but that's what we get in the second film. And yet they are the exact same character. The only thing that changed is the situation and the point of view. If the robot/clone is the enemy and ordered to kill you, he's a villain, if he's on your side and ordered to protect you, he's your best friend ever!

The films were focused on the Skywalker story, so we had very little time to get familiar with the clones' personalities. In Ep2 they barely spoke at all, they just showed up and blasted droids away. We only saw them in the heat of battle, and you don't crack wisely in the midst of battle. In the few moments of down-time we saw in Ep3, we actually caught glimpses of camaradery, but then the rest was just battle, and then betrayal. So I understand that you filled in the blanks by imagining the clones were simply cold bastards full time, but we don't really have film evidence to back that up, we never got to know them enough in the films to say that.

Now, with the extended time of TCW, we are getting to know them better, and what we are finding out is that when the clones are not engaged in battle, they are very similar to a normal human being, and that's perfectly alright. When the blaster bolts are flying they are still just as professional as anything we saw in the movies, with the only difference that we are always on their side. I know it's hard to accept it when new material contradicts and image we had built into our minds (I still have a very hard time accepting that ANY CT stormtroopers are clones), but we have to accept that the ultimate "reality" of it is what's presented in Star Wars media, not what we would like it to be.

 

Um, I assume by this you're talking about the fall that Ahsoka and Anakin take in the Droids Duology, a fall A LOT like the fall from the speeder chase that Anakin makes in AOTC. So, I don't understand how exactly that's ignoring the precedent set in the films. The Force is the answer for that situation. And no one was "flying". If you're going to take three lines, fill in some blanks (that weren't missing) from AOTC, how can you ignore Anakin's fall from the very same movie?

The Clones are efficient soldiers and thus efficient killers when ordered to be. At this stage in the game they are taking their orders from their direct superiors, in this case the Jedi. The way the Jedi lead may be helpful here. Perhaps the orders the Jedi give leave some things open to interperatations. Order 66 was "kill the Jedi" no way out of that. Kill them. So far, I haven't really seen much else in that tone. I can't possibly say they aren't killing machines. I too, would like to see them put a little more into the obeying orders thing. I was just pontificating on possibilities that I think might be interesting. But I certainly can't say that I've seen anything thrown out the window. They are clones, sure. But they are human. They are better than droids, because they can think. And there is no reason to think that they wouldn't begin to develop personalities over time, or even be comrades with each other and the Jedi. I can't imagine that a theme wouldn't be that eventually these clones would have to develop more independent thinking. And how would that affect their ability to follow orders. Yes we know it's "cloned into them" but how? How do we know that process is infallible? How many armies does the Kaminoan people clone on a regular basis? And if it's done a lot, where the hell are those armies? Could this be a failed experiment? Well not completely because they follow Order 66... but could maybe over time their environment develop personalities where they would overcome this programming? I mean how do you program a human? Sure put a gene in that makes him MORE subservient... but get a hold of a self-help tape or Tony Robbins and you could over come that kind of thing (at least in our world). There are just so many different avenues to be looking down.

My whole question was just on the possibility of a clone being able to see issues with legality of orders. Yes they are trained to obey, but we don't really know the specifics of that. Moreover, I was wondering if there were a possibility of a defect clone or two out there that might be missing this "obeying" gene or whatever it is. Could there be faulty clones, and if there can what kinds of faults or "mutations" could be possible and what would the results be.


I just don't see how AOTC is being completely torn apart here. I don't see it at all. Sure, I'd like to see them maybe forced to obey an order or two. That'd be pretty cool to see, considering what has been said. But let's say Anakin gave a clone an order to think for himself for a while during a mission... what happens there? "You might have improvise, Rex..." I'm not disagreeing with you completely, I do see your general point and think it should be addressed at some point, but to go on to say this show is destroying the integrity of the saga seems a bit far to me.

 

Boletus,

Here it comes again, the whole "Kaminoans are actually incompetent" argument postulated a dozen other times in this thread. For a whole bunch of reasons, I think it's totally without merit. I actually make my judgments by what's in the movies instead of what's not in them.

And, again, it's not just that the clones are a little bit different than AOTC and ROTS projected them as being. They're different in every way, shape, and form. There's zero indication that they've been genetically modified to be servile, to age fast, or to murder all the Jedi. Moreover, they were literally portrayed as Nazis in AOTC. Literally. They've gone from Nazi/Soviet-style murderous instruments of tyranny to....the Allied forces. (And the whole Clone Wars has been modified, too.)

So, again, my point isn't just that one particular issue of the clones or the Clone Wars has deviated a bit from the movies, it's that the spirit (and the fact) of everything has been changed radically.