PT Clones

Third act of Attack of the Clones on Geonosis. The Jedi are cornered and all seems lost. Yoda shows up with the Clones and all hell breaks loose...

But did anyone put two and two together regarding Jango Fett? Obi-Wan tracks Jango to Dooku's lair... Jango's just chilling with Dooku... OK, fine. But after the battle or whatever did anyone stop to think that, wait... Jango is the template for the clones... Jango is also hanging out with Dooku... something's not right here... did Dooku have something to do with the creation of the clone army? Why else would Jango be hanging out with the Sith Lord?

Why did nobody reason this? Mace, Yoda or Kenobi should have brought it up at the end of AOTC, right? I mean, if the Jedi know that the clone soldiers are a product of Sith tampering then they're not going to use them, right?

 

Because it's a big leap from Jango (who is first and foremost a bounty hunter) being the clone template of a secret project and Dooku being involved with that same project when there's not a single hint of that. In fact, you only know that Dooku is involved when he's revealed to be Darth Tyranus by Sidious. Obviously, the Jedi don't know about it.

 

Throughout the prequels, we see the Jedi try to investigate the Sith and their plot, but the case goes very badly. Part of it is that Sifo-Dyas, Maul, Jango, Grievous, Dooku and even that changeling girl from ROTS all take their secrets to the grave. Part of it is the dark side clouding everything. Part of it, I think, is that when Yoda goes to Kamino, he senses no evil intent in the clones; they won't know about the betrayal until the moment it happens, and he (correctly) approves them as loyal soldiers.

In the Clone Wars, they do learn that Dooku is Tyrannus, if I'm not mistaken. And in ROTS, Anakin mentions "the Sith Lord we've been searching for," and Yoda knows the name "Darth Sidious." So they find certain answers... they just don't make it in time.

 

Lucas did not care for such details.

He was busy with 3D CGI sequences.

 

I'm sure they did question it. Just like I'm sure they tried to get to the bottom of who actually ordered the Army itself. At some point though they hit a brick wall. They knew that Dooku and Fett were working together, however, they had no choice but to use the Clone Army as they had just started a War. At some point the how's and why's have to give way to fighting the War.

 

I totally get that a war had just broken out, and that took precedent. But saying that it was hard to make the connection between the creation of the army and Count Dooku sounds a little ridiculous. On Geonosis Jango is standing right there next to Dooku. They knew someone erased Kamino from the Jedi maps. Yoda would have reasoned that the fallen Jedi Dooku must have done it in order to hide the creation of the clone army using his template buddy Jango. This would have made it clear that the Sith were behind the both armies, droid and clone.

Could the Jedi have backed off and refused to fight until they unraveled the Sith mystery, or are they obligated to protect the Republic no matter what?

 

That is not 100% true. The Kaminoans told Obi-Wan that the jedi master Syfo Dias ordered the clone army.

Jango is simply a bountyhunter serving anyone who hires him for money.

It is not logical for the jedi to believe that Dooku was behind the Clone army. Dooku was the leader of the separatists. Why would he order a clone army to stop his own invasion droid troops, which can easily outnumber the jedi.

 

It only takes one to make war. The Separatists have the ability to strike Coruscant. In TCW they strike Kamino. In the micro-series at least, they strike Illum. Palpatine and Dooku are going to send the droid armies to fight the Jedi, ready or not.

 

It's not that it was hard for them to make some sort of connection. They know Fett was involved with Dooku, they eventually find out that Dooku is the Sith Lord, Darth Tyranus (Fett admits to Obi Wan he was hired by Tyranus). Some of the information was available to them right away, however, the war had already started it, and they had a hand in starting it. Some of the info trickles in as the war progresses. No matter what information they got though, the war had started.

The problem they were faced with is they did not control the Republics Army. Palpatine did. The Jedi led the armies into battle, they did not have a say as to whether or not the Republic went to war. That was the whole point of Palpatine getting the emergency powers he so badly wanted in AOTC. So while the Jedi are trying to unravel the mystery of the Sith, they are also being dragged along into the war that they helped start. The Republic was going to war no matter what.

So what were the Jedi to do? They didn't control the Clone Army, Palpatine and The Republic did. There was no way that the Jedi were going to be able to convince anyone in the Republic not to use the Clones based on their suspicions that a Sith was behind the creation of the Clone Army. The Republic was faced with war and needed the Army regardless of where it came from. I guess the Jedi could have sat out the war and tried to figure out the Sith connection, but, they would have watched the galaxy tear itself apart as they sat on the sidelines trying to figure out a riddle that they might have never figured out anyway. I'm sure that as the Clone Wars progressed they kept it in the back of their minds something was wrong, but, as I said earlier, the war eventually takes priority. Trying to stop the Galaxy from destroying itself probably was more important.

Also don't forget, come ROTS, the Jedi are still very suspicious of a lot. While they might not think Palpatine is the Seret Sith Lord, they definitely think he is up too something. Obi Wan doesn't trust Palpatine in AOTC, he comes out and says it. The Jedi ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine, showing they have suspicions about him. The moment the Jedi get the report that Grievous is dead, Mace and the posse of Jedi Knights (not a posse of diplomats) are already on their way over to make sure Palpatine gives back power to the senate when Anakin tells them of Palpatine being a Sith.

So I wouldn't think the Jedi just give up on the mystery surrounding the clone army, but they had bigger fish to fry.

 

It is logical, to a point. Obi Wan gets out of Zam that she was hired by a Bounty Hunter. Obi Wan traces the Bounty Hunters Dart to Kamino. Obi Wan finds the Clone Army. Wouldn't ya know it, but the template for the Republics Clone Army is a ... wait for it... A Bounty Hunter named Fett. Obi Wan fights Fett on Kamino. Obi Wan follows Fett to Geonosis, where Obi Wan overhears the plotting of the Separatists. During the arena execution, Fett is in the main box with all the Separatists, including Dooku. So anyone with a bit of reasoning would think Dooku was somehow involved with the Clone Army as he has the template of said army standing next to him in the box. Logic would dictate that there is a strong possibility that something was going on. Now yes, there is a possibility of it just being a coincidence, but, if you were a Jedi trying to solve the mystery of the Clone Army, well you just wouldn't say it's a coincidence that Fett ran too Dooku the moment he was in trouble and wash your hands of it.

 

BTW, I love your 3D CGI avatar!

 

So what? He's a gun for hire.

How would he jump to that conclusion? All they know is that Jango was hired by a certain Tyranus and that the clone army was ordered by Sifo-Dyas (or so Lama Su said).

There is no connection between the Sith and the clone army, at least that the Jedi know of.

Looking at the consequences of not using the clone army, it's easy to understand that they had to use it if the Republic were to have any means of defending itself (and defeat the separatists).

 

Thank you very much.

Thats an Original Character of mine.
I have made a Fanon article.
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I guess what I'm saying here is that after the battle on Geonosis, once the literal and metaphorical smoke has cleared, when Yoda, Kenobi and Windu are chilling in the council room would nobody want to mention the curiosity of Jango hanging out with Dooku? I realize that the Jedi must protect the Republic no matter what, and the Clones are their best chance of fighting back an unfathomably massive droid army, but once Obi-Wan followed Jango directly from Kamino to Geonosis you think he'd immediately put 2-and-2 together and realize that Dooku is behind all of this, especially since it was established earlier in the film that only a Jedi could have erased Kamino from the Jedi archive maps.

 

Why? Obi-Wan doesn't know why he went to Geonosis.

To the Jedi, it could have been Sifo-Dyas. After all, he was the one who apparently had ordered the army. There is nothing that connects Dooku to Kamino or the clones.

 

I think that the Jedi could speculate all they wanted to and still not get down to the bottom of it until it was too late. Jango was dead, so he could not talk. Sifo Dyas was dead, so that was out of the question. And at that point, Tyranus wasn't someone they knew of, so they couldn't question him. Dooku was the leader of the Separatists, so his more obvious interests would have seemed vetted in the droid army. I think it's fair to say the Jedi did speculate as to why Dooku was hanging out with Jango, but ultimately it did not matter since the clones were already being used by the Republic. They could have chalked it up to Jango being what he is... a bounty hunter.

 

Bounty hunters are supposed to be neutral. They'll work for whoever pays them. So the Jedi shouldn't have been suspicious that Jango was working for both the Kaminoans and the Separatists.

 

Very well said. I would also add: so what if the Jedi suspected/believed that there was a connection between Dooku and the separatists and the Clone army? As far as they're concerned, they're very lucky they found the army and are able to use it against the separatists, since the logical assumption is that the separatists were creating an army for themselves.

So. We have an army that might have been ordered by Dooku, but we've been able to find it and use it against him. We don't like using clones, we don't like wars, but we are in the middle of a crisis and we have no other choice but to use the army (I think Yoda's line about the lack of victory is a very eloquent way of explaining the difficult choice they had to make in a lose-lose situation). Now the Republic and the Chancellor command the army, so nothing can go wrong, right?

The only flaw was... that the leader of the Republic was indeed a Sith Lord who knew about a certain hidden order....

 

No reason to be suspicious? So when Obi Wan tells Dooku that he is tracking a Bounty Hunter named Jango Fett, to which Dooku replies that there are no Bounty Hunters there, and that in fact the Geonosians don't trust them (Bounty Hunters). Only to see that very same Bounty Hunter in the main arena box with Dooku and the other CIS leaders, that isn't suspicious either?

There's plenty of reasons for the Jedi to be suspicious of Dooku's involvement in the Clone Army, but as I stated earlier, it was too late to really dig as deep as they would have normally. They were in the middle of a war.

 

I think no reason to be suspicious is going too far. I think it's more that there were other possible explanations besides that Dooku personally used Jango as the template for the clones. Also, they can't trust what Dooku says because Sith use deceit in nefarious and unexpected ways.

Dooku could've been the guy who hired Jango as the template or Sifo-Dyas could've hired Jango. He's a bounty hunter, so for enough money he'll do most things. Jango is clearly supposed to be an incredible physical specimen (he does pretty well against Obi-Wan), so Sifo-Dyas could have hired him to be the template for the clones, and then sneaky Dooky somehow found out that Jango's so awesome that he's the template for the clones and he thought "I want to hire that awesome guy to be my assasssin. Plus, hiring him will make the Jedi all suspicious of their great clones hee-hee-hee!," or Dooku knew Jango all along and was involved with Sifo-Dyas and said, "Let's use this guy as the template."

I think the main thing, though, is if you find a clone army or a bunch of spaceships or a bunch of blasters or whatever, and you have to fight a war, you are going to use them. I mean, imagine if they found a 10 million blasters that they definitely knew were made by the Separatists (and they don't definitely know the clones were made by the Separatists). Would they not use those blasters because they think that somewhere hidden in the software of those blasters is a computer code that will cause those blasters to automatically target Jedi 3 years later? Of course, they would use them. Maybe they would be slightly worried at the beginning that those blasters might fart out on them unexpectedly, but after they prove to be dependable, it seems natural that they would use the blasters, whoever made them. In Vietnam, soldiers would consistently use AK-47's they found because they were superior to the US-made M-16's. That was a real conflict and those AK-47's could've been booby-trapped (the Viet-Cong even booby-trapped children's toys), but US soldier's were willing to take the risk b/c the AK-47's were that much better. In the same way, after the clones proved dependable, the Jedi would just figure, "Hey, good for us, even if Dooku was planning to use the clones troops to take over the Republic, we ended up getting them instead. Lucky for us."

 

In AotC, I'm not sure Obi Wan knows Jango by his armor. He closes the closet door on it when he comes in. The again, I haven't seen AotC in a while.