ST Co-existing; people who like the film, people who hate it. How?

There's not a thread for this particular subject, and maybe it's a bad idea for a thread.

But here, how about we put aside what we think of the film, and imagine we haven't seen it yet and know nothing about it except that some of us will hate it for various reasons and some of us won't. How do we co-exist, while having debates, but also not restricting the rights of those who love the film to take that as a starting point for in depth discussion, and also not restricting the rights of those who hate it to spend as much time as they like discussing the frustration of getting a film they'd waited for but didn't like?

The haters cave is full of debate, as is (obviously) the civil debate thread. At times, both threads are diverging wildly from their remit; the haters cave turns into debate about merit, the civil debate thread gets less than civil, and some of the complaints posted are more at home on the haters cave (and memes/gifs posted to make a point only get people's backs up)

So, let's have a discussion.

I'll make a suggestion first of all that restricts me; if you like the film, you stay out of the haters cave. Don't even read it, but definitely don't post, or like anything. Report a post if need be, but leave it to the mods to deal with. Let the haters cave be truly a place where people can hate the film. If you want to debate against someone who hates the film, only do so when someone who hates it brings it up somewhere where it's up for debate.

Secondly, I'd suggest that any straightforward bashing be now recognised as such on the character threads; Rey is a Mary Sue; Finn is a janitor; Kylo Ren is rubbish; Luke has been character assassinated (I hate that misuse) - these points have all been made and haven't led anywhere good. These posts are for the haters cave; the character threads should be neutral places for discussion of character design nd direction - not the merits of the character design and direction.

Thirdly, I personally don't see the need for a "gusher's "sanctuary if the above happens, but assuming that even neutral character threads will have some debate, maybe there is a place where some of us can occasionally cheer ourselves up with a "wasn't it great when..." Without fear of it causing a debate about how it contradicted canon or something; in debates I'm sure people on both sides feel that they are facing a brick wall. Maybe both sides should have a thread they can go off to to discuss frustrations without it seeming like ganging up on others etc.

Fourthly and finally; let's call out fallacies and uncoolness even when it's people who agree with us. It ain't fair to turn a blind eye to people who are being out of line. Sometimes all of us have stepped out of line, and we shouldn't reinforce it just because their rudeness disses someone who has a different view. Let's remember that if any two of us met on a work training day, we'd probably want to go for a pint with the other at the end of it due to having more in common than most people. It's only when interests overlap so much that the differences seem exaggerated.

Anyway, any thoughts from both sides of the like/dislike debate welcome on this thread - let's keep discussion of the film out of it though, and just talk about what we can do to learn from the fact that divides about the PT have lasted over a decade...

 

Wow, TPM came out 16/17 years ago. Thats crazy, and amazing because we are still debating it.

Wasn't it great when we all came to TFN and bonded over that awesome thing Star Wars? We all love the GFFA and thats why we have such passionate debates. I think we can definitely co-exist. It's a matter of stepping back and knowing when it a) just isn't getting anywhere and b) remaining focused on the films and not on each other.

 

Great post. I will try to stay out of the cave, for my part. I wish there were a way to hide threads.

 

The hate cave needs to be named differently. It puts a stupid generalization on just about everyone who goes there, good intentions or not. It ruins any and all sides of the party.

The cave should be named differently and any and all debates on characters etc should be there.

 

clinteastwoodbradfield I agree. I will stay out of the cave. But i want to emphasize respect and perspective. I lived through worse (TPM/prequels) and counted myself among the apologists who chafed at the hate.

If there is any consistency in my position it is I put my love of star wars ahead of doctrinal differences and it does feel pretty weird to me to be again facing haters now that the shoe is on the other foot. That so many of the haters were former allies (PT fans and Lucas fanatics) is sadder for me.

So recently I was posting in the cave discussing pain points with the haters. The discussion as far as I was aware was cordial and did not devolve into personal attacks. But to some haters merely discussing and possibly showing Some of their nitpicks were unfair was grounds enough to attempt to silence me and it was made abundantly clear I should stay out ad not discuss anything that may undermine their hatred. Against such force there is not much we or I can do. Staying out of the cave is segregation and not co existence.

If in this case people simply want to wallow in their misery no amount of co existing is possible. The haters being a minority also tends to enhance their feelings of persecution and desire for safe spaces.

As for the discussion where both sides can come to an understanding, it has happened on individual levels. As a collective however tribal instincts take over.

 

To be fair, the Cave is not a thread to tell the other posters that they're wrong. Nor, in my opinion, a place to just post how much YOU like it despite what everyone else in the thread thinks.

 

I definitely think staying out of the cave (unless you want to vent without challenge about the film) and a crack down on outright bashing (though not criticism) elsewhere is the way forwards. To be frank, I'm not actually convinced I would get on alright IRL with those I clash with, and I'm sure they'd say the same, but then not everyone has to like each other. It would be good if we could find a way to minimise the flare ups.

 

Exactly. I've gone in there to drop some factual stuff, but tried hard to keep my opinion of the film out of it to varying degrees of success.

The goal for that thread was to a) keep the worst vitriol out of other threads b) keep people from repeating the same debates c) give the mods a break d) make the "haters" feel less like people are constantly attacking them.

I think if the cave exists, then the bar for what is bashing must be lowered. Otherwise it's just a base for building bile that later gets spewed elsewhere.

I give it a C- for success.

Edit: I will add that it's pretty difficult to not read that place because that's where the masks come off. You can be debating someone in one thread, and they might seem intransigent but otherwise reasonable on a point, but then read the same poster say something completely unhinged or insulting to the entire fanbase. It's easy to figure out if someone is worth engaging.

 

Yes I see that. I would even include disputing their facts. The whole droid speak and Rey discussion originated from the cave and even the spun off thread had just a ridiculous amount of posturing and intransigence form the haters. I'm just not going to engage if I can help it.

 

I can't help myself, I went back in there. Is there a 12-step program I can try?

 

Every time you are tempted, visit the Droid speak thread instead. It'll remind you that you aren;t going to change any minds, even when you can clobber them with the most obvious of evidences. Let them wallow in their own crapulence.

 

But but... someone said Star Wars shouldn't have any more wars!

 

I am considered a "hater" but I certainly don't hate everything about the film. As you can see from my sig I rate it above TPM and AOTC.

Just to say something positive for a change, here are the things I like about the movie:

• It's entertaining and fun.
• I like the acting.
• Really liked Rey, Chewbacca, and BB-8 in this one. In fact, I like Rey more than Luke or Anakin in their first movies.

For things I don't like...well...you'll just have to visit the cave for that one.

That said, if we post something in the "haters" thread, it's assumed that everything we have to say about the film is negative which is not true. The thread title leads to a lot of negativity assumptions.

 

Strongbow wrote

Let them wallow in their own crapulence.

That kind of attitude and language is one of the reasons I for one prefer to spend time in the "cave". Some observations there are way too nitpicky (I agree), others are worthy of reflection.

But what I see put forward on display here (and at other message bords) is less that people that didn't like the movie or have issues with it are "haters", rather I see an unwarranted "hate" aimed against those that (unfortunately) couldn't enjoy the film as much as others did.

 

I'm glad there is a haters thread here, I haven't posted in it and only looked into it a couple of times.

 

I don't care for that label either. Or any label really. Tribalism isn't healthy.

 

Yes I've been told directly to 'go away gusher' merely for disagreeing with a nitpick. Tribalism is exactly what it is. People aren't interested in discussion. That said people like that can't have their cake and eat it. Ie: they can't be free to post their stuff unchallenged in their own thread then engineer those opinions to he spun off into the main forum so they can repost the same opinions and behave in an intransigent fashion when challenged and with no consequences

 

I imagine this would work: The mods have a specific username they use to create controversy threads. And THAT username has the capability of being added to one's ignore list.

 

ucdex

I think I remember that incident, but I've also noticed the same 'go away' attitude directed at 'haters'. There are people not interested in discussions on both sides which shouldn't me misinterpreted as an invitation to pidgeonhole all into one or the other category.

 

I've always thought this place needs a "War room" People can go into it and go nuts... No swearing, no personal attacks etc BUT they can vent to their hearts content "I hate the prequels, George Lucas ruined my childhood, TFA is a rehash" etc etc etc

Even 2 posters getting into a ridiculous argument that keeps going for days "Take it to the war room" !!

 

Take thee to a nunnery!

But yes, there should be a war room. But I think it may dissolve into a crazy unfiltered mess.

 

Simple: It's a bleeping movie and realize that pretty much ANYTHING else going on the world is more important and it literally has no impact on their lives one way or the other. None.

 

On the end of the spectrum there are people who like rose colored glasses: Me, for instance.

I'm cool with a Cave name change (How about the "Didn't Like Dances With Wolves Society"*) as long as the overall intention of the thread is still evident. I'm not big on negativity, I don't really care why any one doesn't like something. I will debate points of contention to an extent but I'ma let you have your opinion, I have mine and I don't see a reason to get into it. More specific details (like is Rey overpowered) seem to have less negative overall discussion so I'm clearly down to discuss. Once it devolves into name calling and zero acknowledging of the other person's point, then I walk away. I don't need people to agree with me that badly.

That's one of things I love most about this film. There is so much potential with so many questions, I can talk about this movie for days and not get bored, nor resort to having debate whether something was ill conceived, executed poorly, or just generally bad.

The issue at hand, really, is us fans need to remember how to either debate respectfully, or know when to walk away so we don't behave like children and have mods shut things down for being too gruesome. It's a silly simple thing, but really giving an argument thought, and not immediately dismissing it - or at least giving the impression that it was considered goes a LONG way to maintain civility and have meaningful discussion.

I've a coworker that is on the other end of excitement about Batman V Superman but we walked away from our discussion as still very good friends for the above reason. And no, neither of us changed our minds.

[*Google it. ]

[edit] Oh look, an example.

Please don't diminish the impact this franchise has had like this. Ofc and obviously people have taken things way too seriously, but saying things like this implies there's something wrong with being a superfan. A lot of people have literally grown up with these stories, they are very much a part of their lives. There is very little short of actual religion that has had as much impact on a lot of people.

I know I'm not alone in saying it's a bit more than "just a movie" to me and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

 

Part of me hopes this is a passing phase and though hate and detractors will not be convinced and will continue to be part of the community passions will cool overtime