ST Co-existing; people who like the film, people who hate it. How?

The good news, is the movies will be coming at a rapid clip so that we'll all have lots to argue about!

 

To AmySolo listen:

If we all followed this advice, there might not need to be a place to vent or to gush. I know some posters won't post on this board because they feel like anything less than 100% enthusiasm for the new film results in them being treated (in their opinion) as idiots or without taste.

One can critique without hating, and should be allowed to. Points should be able to be refuted or disputed. But no poster should ever feel like one's opinion is "not allowed" by another group of posters.

 

One thing that seems to be an issue of sorts, is that whatever the jokey reasoning at the time, the name of the "hater's cave" does seem to be a term that casts the people who don't like the film, or who object to large parts of it, as unreasonable or extreme. In my opinion, some of them are. But in their opinion, they're not.

Maybe the hater's cave could be renamed with something a bit less loaded, and given a more neutral name like "Dislike the film? Vent and rant here", which doesn't have a judgement attached.

A combination of that, and of those who liked the film staying off of that thread, may help.

And then in return, maybe we can on other threads get away from, or move on from, judgement about the film's merits entirely, aside from on review threads, and instead get into analysis: how Kylo was beaten as opposed to whether it was stupid that he did, for instance.

I mean, even on the civil debate thread, where either consensus or stalemate has been reached is about what the intentions of the filmmakers were; for better or worse, Star Wars 7 is what it is, and won't be a Tweminator sequel that can be retconned out ever; it's there for good.
Just as even people who hate Attack Of The Clones with a passion can incorporate its events, themes and characters into wider points without having to bash or criticise, maybe we can do that on this forum too?

For me, much as I thought Starkiller Base was an homage too far, a I have to accept; that's where Han died, that's what blew up the hosnian system, and it's what the resistance blew up. I don't think I can say anything more interesting in a negative slant than "it was an homage too far", so it'll be more interesting to talk about the in-universe stuff; why did the first order make it?

 

Probably the best advice is just to not engage with people you consider to be unreasonable.

 

My understanding is that the Cave's thread name was debated and settled before I had any input.

I'm not sure if in other threads, you can entirely eliminate critique...if someone wants to post, "Isn't it great that X happens," and another poster thinks it's not, just derivative or lacking imagination, that poster should be able to explain that.

Let's face it - discussing points raised is good. Very, very good. Asking others to ignore what they see as miscues isn't cool. Discussion necessarily involves pros and cons, good and bad, fantastic and abysmal.

 

How about "Dislike parts of the film? Vent and rant here"

Because I don't hate all of the movie and a lot of other "haters" don't. There are a some things I liked about the movie, some things I didn't like. Just the things I didn't like I feel pretty strongly about

 

Either way.

 

I agree 100% . Just because I overall was disappointed with the movie doesn't mean it ruined Star Wars for me it just means I didn't like this one film compared to the rest. This reminds me of liberalism in America(I'm not conservative either) where if you disagree with them you are automatically the enemy and labeled a racist, sexist, and whatever other word they can think of. A healthy debate is often warranted and necessary for growth of the individual and of the fanbase as a whole.

 

Let's not pretend that there haven't been some very overtly offensive posts in the cave.

 

I beg to differ : the Cave is a place where many flawed, dumb, silly (if not outright offensive) arguments will flourish (since there are no contradiction to refute or refine them).
This a very dark place where you go to rant & relieve pression, and one should be well aware of that before entering it.
(if it was just me, i would simply call it "The Circlejerk of Hate", but i guess that would way too radical)


If one want to discuss or debate about a part they don't like, in a more sensible way, they can do so in any other part of the forum, no need for them to go there (since no one is allowed to counter their argument there anyway).

 

People sound so much more reasonable here. But yeah. If Bob is disappointed in the film and cites issues X,y&z can we discuss X,y,z? Posters here seem to say yes. But often X,y are subjective nitpicks and when a counter argument to that opinion is presented the people posting those opinions are labeled gushers or told to go away because people who hate the film need theit safe space.

I'm reminded of trigger warnings on college campuses and how it's used as a crudgel. If the cave is off limits to discussion then that is what it is. I don't want to have to review my understanding of what people think will offend them every few weeks because what I see is vagueness that is advantageous to those who want to nitpick they get to do it then retreat into their shell when things turn out badly

 

Along these lines, it would be nice if people would have some messageboard etiquette and read around before posting topics as if they're the first people to post something like "Why did Ren say the lightsaber belongs to me?" or "what bothered you the most?" or thoughts on Rey's parents. Regarding the movie's story itself, I'm discussioned-out. There's nothing new to say about it here so I barely look at the topics.
I've been saying for weeks that getting on messageboards and all that isn't productive if you like a movie. I would like to avoid all this and just see the movie multiple times and catch new stuff, ponder stuff on my own, etc., and without thinking "oh this is that part those people were whining about online." It occurred to me that when I was younger, I mostly saw movies on my own and thought of them on my own. Maybe parents watched too, but their opinions weren't a part of my life. No internet discussion, no reviews, no theories or criticisms cluttering my mind. I definitely intend to avoid all that for Episode VIII and onward.

 

I agree, overly offensive posts by BOTH parties "for" and "against" TFA. Always extremes on both sides that make the middle ground so tough to see.

 

I'll stay out of the cave. While it'll be cool to encounter Vader, I doubt it'll happen. Snakes and bats no problem, but I hate spiders.

 

It's a quote from the Simpsons.

Having said that, some of the posts in there are just plain ridiculous. But people are allowed to believe whatever wacky stuff they want to believe. If someone wants to make measured criticisms of the movie, I can respect that, even if i don't agree. The preposterous screeds, however, I do not respect. And it bothers me not a bit if that doesn't meet with someone's approval,

 

My main issue with the so called "haters" is that if you provide negative feedback, you should also include what you think should be done to fix the issue.

Otherwise it is just bashing.

Don't like that Rey understands BB-8? Cool, then what should be done to address that? Show how you would do that exposition shot. Provide your reasoning, not only your critique.

Give us "What", "Why" and "How" things should be changed.

 

One thing struck me in the college where I study, my friend , that kind of person who likes Star Wars , but not that super, told me super excited about the new film, he liked it, and even asked me if I knew what would happen next. I respect the opinion of those who did not like , you are free to enjoy what you like , but I think TFA meets well their role , which is to introduce the series to a new generation , and also bring back the guys who fell in love with the classic trilogy, but he is not thrilled with the prequels .

 

Shrug. I just like Star Wars. This is Star Wars.

 

I bet not many people here hates TFA, if they did hate it why would they be here in the forum? or a least the TFA forum.
But does that mean TFA is movie safe from flaws? No.
Just because some people point out the flaws does not mean they are trolls. Actually they just want a better episode 8 & 9 and are addressing what should be fixed.
If you don't agree with what they see as a flaw a flaw, that's cool! But calling them 'Haters' and things like 'Black or White thinkers' is just the same as calling you guys
'Blind Fan Boys'

 

Wait.... Star Wars isnt the answer to the meaning of life, universe, and everything possible? I guess I'll go back to the number 42....

 

It feels like this thread is degenerating into a "Those stupid people who didn't like TFA — how can we smack them down?" strategy session. I'm reading posts that suggest casting doubt on TFA's merit be banned outside the cave. Or taking a "we have the facts, all they have is their stupid opinions" tack. Or proposing that negative statements about characters be banned form the character threads. I appreciate Valairy Scot's point that no one should feel another group of posters has placed his opinion in a "not allowed zone," because it seems there is definitely a desire to do that. (And to be honest, I also appreciate @Satipo's point about not liking one another in real life, because I'm also not sure some of us could ever meet as friends face-to-face. And being people who would get along in RL shouldn't be a requirement to have a civil dialogue.) And if you guys want a Gushers' Sanctuary, in fairness you should have one. And I will honor its rules.

But the reality is this: no one can protect a movie from its own decisions. The filmmakers didn't consult us. They freely did whatever they wanted. That's their right. That's necessary. Art isn't made by committee. But their decisions have consequences, and those consequences will reverberate forward and shape the Star Wars franchise. And it's not within our power to turn aside those consequences. When George Lucas decided to put ewoks into ROTJ, a lot of people who were the right age, or had the right attitude, liked it a lot more as a result. And a lot of people liked it a lot less. Both those consequences have meaning. Both are fair. Lucas made a decision to send some extra love to people who love cute creatures, and he chose to disappoint people who wanted a more serious battle scene, more along the lines of Hoth. The movie made its bed and had to lie in it. And the Star Wars following is a big one, with many sub-cliques, and you can't please everyone. You have to pick your targets. You choose to go for the cute creature audience, you get more of that; you get less of other things. It doesn't mean, that as someone who dislikes teddy bears beating up stormtroopers, that to evaluate ROTJ fairly, you need to twist your reactions around and imagine what you would think of it if you liked the Ewoks.

In the same way, Abrams/Kasdan/KK, or whoever else was deeply involved here, chose their targets. The guys who have been complaining for years that there aren't enough women or black people in Star Wars? They got a lot. The people who are into Luke or the Jedi order? They got nothing. Fans of dogfighting and fancy flying? Tossed a bone. People who are into big, capital-ship space battles? Disappointed. Those people who feel disappointment aren't feeling it because they're bad, and the people who feel satisfied don't feel satisfied because they're bad, either. The filmmakers could only give some of us what we want. Instead of giving a little to everybody, they decided the best way was a feast or famine approach. That's their decision. That's their responsibility. They could have shown Rey getting Jedi training; they chose not to. Some people liked TFA and Star Wars more as a result; some like it less. The franchise is going to have to live with both of those consequences — good and bad consequences it freely chose to bring on itself. It's not the responsibility of any side in a debate to make itself or others pretend those consequences aren't happening.

 

I think if you want to stop a forum degenerating into a constant flame war, I think the onus is on everyone to try and post with more empathy, which is very tricky sometimes, but I think it's the only way. That plus accepting that we will never all see eye to eye on something. As you say, SW means a great many things to a great many people.

RE - the cave - I think it's important to stay out of it full stop. 1 - because it's a place to vent and 2 - because once you read some of the more unvarnished bashing that goes on from time to time, it becomes very difficult to untangle that from your perception of the poster. To paraphrase a wiser man than myself "it's like trying to talk to Hannibal Lecter about the weather while knowing he really wants to eat you". It's easy to end up replying to the undercurrent as opposed to the point at hand, and (mutually) respect is eroded and as frustration grows on both sides, that's when the sniping breaks out and the flaming starts up again. It's never going to be easy with a property that so many care passionately about and that increasingly, stands less chance of pleasing everyone.

 

Believe me, that's why I'm begging them not to get rid of the ignore feature. Most people I can whatever and move on, I've had two run ins with a guy that turned personal so yeah.

Like the Civil Debate thread which, despite mods having to jump in a couple times really did work. 50+ is not a failure. At least, I was entertained, and therefore don;t consider it a failure. xD
But yeah, I completely agree with this.