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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate College: Free Exchange of Ideas or Liberals Cancelling Chicken Sandwiches?

Discussion in 'Community' started by J-Rod, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Please, explain in detail how I disagreed with that statement. I'm curious, as I may be miscommunicating one of my points.
     
  2. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Well, the point of college is that you do not know everything, you know things incorrectly, and that you are going to there to learn. Students in college should have that in mind that they are not all know and probably don't know as much as they think they know. They're paying the college to learn, whether or not they currently agree with what they're learning. Therefore, when something comes up that they disagree with, or someone is paid by the college (their tuition money) and says something they disagree with, they need to realize that they could be the ones who are wrong. It's part of being in college.

    Basically they shouldn't be voicing any kind of dissent because they should know they're signing up to be taught things they potentially disagree with.
     
  3. PRENNTACULAR

    PRENNTACULAR VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 21, 2005
    I tend to side with ender on this, but wockys post made me lol
     
  4. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Wocky's post made us all lol, regardless of which side we're on.
     
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Okay, see, I actually do agree with you there. However, I also think that student would be completely in the right to not change their mind at all, get really pissy with the university for spending their money that way, and raise a big stink about it, unless they explicitly forfeited that right (Usually by agreeing to a syllabus in a classroom context - incidentally, in Arizona every science class I took had to have a clause in the syllabus about how conservative Christian doctrine might be explicitly contradicted and that by accepting the syllabus they waived their right to object, so I've actually got some first hand experience that this isn't an exclusively left wing phenomenon. People like to complain!).

    I dunno, maybe the issue is that I just have complicated feelings on what constitutes acceptable use of student fees and acceptable reaction to the use of student fees, coincidentally fostered by my own university experiences in a relatively apolitical context. So, yeah, I think our disagreement is precisely here:
    I think that applies to the classroom but not to campus speakers.
     
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Yes, I'd say that's precisely where we disagree.

    I believe that college students shouldn't get pissy because they should know they're going to be taught things and be exposed to things they currently disagree with. I think that's the whole point, in fact. If this is something they can't handle, then maybe college isn't for them.

    And just to show that I'm being fair on this, I think it's also stupid when right wing students get upset that a professor is teaching them something they disagree with.
     
  7. PRENNTACULAR

    PRENNTACULAR VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 21, 2005
    That seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction tho, ramzar
     
  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    OK, fair points.

    My contention is that you actually learn a lot by understanding the varied thought processes of people with whom we disagree.

    Firstly, we are at least able to give their argument the proper context, i.e. we're not just disagreeing with a snippet or high level overview.

    Secondly, I have never subscribed to a position and I'd wager you haven't either that "knowing your enemy" makes you implicitly agree with them. I read in detail bin Laden's thoughts and I could say I understand him without sympathising or agreeing with him. Wocky, for example, tries to understand human beings to varying degrees of success.

    So saying "I don't want Dawkins/Germaine Greer/etc to speak!" is actually hugely counter productive for any strategy to ween them off Islamophobia or Transphobia etc. And as per the Atlantic article on the glassjaws of society; "According to the most-basic tenets of psychology, helping people with anxiety disorders avoid the things they fear is misguided."

    Finally I think to Vivec's point part of what defines a personal ideology is having it challenged. If you can withstand 2hrs of an ideological opposite talking and have your beliefs unchanged, then you're more likely to understand and articulate your position to someone who doesn't get it.

    Having a variety of ideas, including stupid, backwards, populist, bigoted etc in the public discourse is an infinitely preferable approach to silencing any viewpoints but those we deem the most fashionable. IMHO.
     
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  9. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Admittedly I'm really biased, as I am an instructor and not a professional speaker. If student fees were set up such that you agreed your fees might be used to bring in speakers you objected to (say via a disclaimer you had to acknowledge before, y'know, paying them) for the purposes of "broadening intellectual horizons" or whatever I'd probably be in Vivec's camp on this issue. As it stands, I think people can complain if they want to.
     
  10. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    And I think they should be judged for it.
     
  11. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    I'm judging Vivec right now... :p
     
  12. Hank Hill

    Hank Hill Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 9, 2013
    This times a thousand.
     
  13. Hank Hill

    Hank Hill Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 9, 2013
    Wow, how whiney and sensitive are today's university students. Professors need to be told to avoid sensitive subjects or the students will go crazy and kill them. What a load of s#!t. What do today's students think college is? Some safe place where they think any criticism is an attack on them? A comedian can't even make a joke without there being a protest because he or she made a rape joke. studhttps://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/texas-academics-told-to-avoid-sensitive-topics-to-prevent-angering-gun-toting-students/
     
  14. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 10, 2004
    'Comedians' making rape jokes should be protested.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The idea of gun-toting students is problematic in and of itself.

    But...I think we lose focus of the problem when we say that college students shouldn't be so sensitive (they can be as sensitive as they please and offended by whatever they want, really) OR claim that bigots are entitled to have their views heard respectfully due to free expression (free expression does not mean freedom from other people's reactions).

    The truth is in the middle. People have the right to express their opinions and be offended by the opinions of others.
     
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  16. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Fixed. Also, wouldn't it be funny if, like, five comedians made rape jokes right now?
     
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  17. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    dp4m and the Ramza-Vivec elevator ride?
     
  18. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    sod off.

    The entire point of comedy is that there are no boundaries. The audience takes offence. And if they make a joke to highlight a cavalier or otherwise un-serious but widely held view of an issue and it makes people uncomfortable, great. Good. Excellent.

    You're thinking.

    If it were up to people like you Even we wouldn't have any comedy because someone always has to be the brunt of a joke, can't have that.

    If you go to a comedy show, and you're offended, you're a bit of a ****. Let's face it. And if you protest, you're an even bigger **** with no sense of humour, a dour person old before their time.
     
  19. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Comedy should be irreverent and subversive and make fun of the privileged and elite, not reinforce the terrible **** that most people already believe on some level. I don't like "jokes" that take shots at people who are always subjected to that ****.
     
  20. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 25, 2013
    If someone's going to grant student loans to practically anyone, then offer forgiveness on the debt, you're probably going to vote for him
     
  21. slightly_unhinged

    slightly_unhinged Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 28, 2014
    Was there some kind of pro-rape sentiment expressed? Otherwise, there is no problem.

    Comedians should be free to offend. It's a mark of a healthy society. The minute you hold something so sacrasanct that it is beyond jest, you become less civilised. Everything should be fair game for comedy. War, politics, royalty, genocide, murder, rape, religion, including portrayal of mohammad.

    Everything I hear from universities these days seems to be whining students banning societies because they're offended by them or removing some tradition or relic because they're butthurt about it.

    No one has a right not to be offended. Being offended is a healthy and thought provoking fact of life.
     
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  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    But some of the best bits of the Borat film was how subversively it highlighted prejudices. Granted, the very serious and very stupid people in your country missed the point and accused Sasha Baron Cohen of, lol, anti-Semitism and race baiting. But when you have someone pretending to be an NESB visitor who is sprouting racist nonsense and people agree with him, be they priviledged elite or working class slobs, it usefully highlights how social attitudes are wrong.

    Jimmy Carr did this when I say him live - makes a joke about something awful and points out how people laugh but then cover their mouths because they know they shouldn't laugh at it. And in that moment you're suddenly aware of your own fallibility as a person.

    Oh. This would mean fashionable leftists might have to conclude all that work in promoting how not racist/misogynistic/homophobic they are was for naught since they laughed at a joke! The damage to the personal brand is real, so real.

    Making a rape joke is not about how much the comic loves non-consensual sex. It's about how you as an audience don't realise you have a more casual attitude than you realise. Hence the discomfort people have..?
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I can't think of a time I have been offended at a comedy show or watching a video of one. My range of humor is pretty broad. But it does not include rape, lynching, burning down mosques and synagogues, etc.
     
  24. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Avoid Frankie Boyle then.
     
  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    Comedy, like other modes of art and communication, is a tool. It can be mindless, mundane, and unserious. It can be inspiring and revolutionary. But it can also, absolutely, be a tool to propagate and reinforce bigotry. Those last instances should be objected to just as forcefully as one would a racist song, anti-Semitic play, or a sexist public speech. There's nothing sacrosanct about comedy that people should be able to use it to harm others or encourage depriving them of their rights.
     
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