Coming to terms with continuity; EU insights.

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Dark-Fox, Nov 3, 2012.

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  1. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    The Star Wars book range has recently expanded for E formats like Amazon Kindle. I find myself reading more and more Star Wars. Up until now I have only read a handful of novels but I have played quite a few games so to say I'm new to the EU is unfiar.

    Coming to terms with how a video game fits in with the saga has been quite easy in the past due in no small part to the rather low quality material presented: you play, forget, move on.

    Back in the day, KotOR was a game-changer for Star Wars entertainment as it took and gave back something to the Universe. Since then, SW games have come a long way in terms of the amount of lore they give to the saga - The Force Unleashed being a good example. It has become harder to forget and move on. However, as they take so long to make the chances of them entering into conflict with existing canon is low.

    So the purpose of this thread is to get advice from the EU veterans about how to deal with the shifting continuity that has become common with the ongoing Clone Wars series in terms of how it conflicts with stuff you thought you knew.

    I was a SW collector before the squeeze of recession diminished a lot of my disposable income, so I have almost a completionist mindset to buying Star Wars products: I buy it, it's mine, nothings going to change unless I sell it, you know?

    I suppose that concept of ownership is hard to shake and seems incompatible when it comes to Star Wars novels. I really want to believe that now I have just finished reading Darth Plagueis I have the difinitive tale of Palpatine's relationship with his sith master. I don't want to watch The Clone Wars next week and see a scene in which Sidious relates the story of how he trained Darth Maul that doesn't mesh with the book I've just read.

    I'm not saying that things shouldn't be considered from different viepoints, or stories converted to to the screen remain 100% faiuthful to the source, such as the "Slaves of the Republic" arc from season 4. I only want what I spend my money on to have a lasting place in the ongoing saga, so that I can re-read a book in five years time and have it as relevent to Star Wars then as it is now. Wishful thinking?

    EU veterans, how have you come to terms with the evolution of Star Wars novels or comics? Does the move to Disney fill you with terror? Plaese share your wisdom because as it stands I'm alomost afraid to read the next novel for fear of the last becoming obsolete.

    Like all those Republic Commando books sitting on my shelf.
  2. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    Haha, I like the Republic Commando bit. Been there myself.

    Okay as I see it, there is no clear-cut canon that any longer exists. Lucas said that the Clone Wars is canon while our beloved EU novels before it are not. Putting aside the irritation I feel about this, let's discuss this in light of new developments. With Disney buying Star Wars, Lucas no longer calls the shots. Who does specifically? Will they choose to make a statement on what is canon and what isn't? If they are smart they'll steer clear of that topic, imagine the potential fallout. Jar-jar rage all over again. So is there/will there be a canon? At all? And with so many contradictions between different novels, shows, games, and more how can we know what is "true"? I don't think that we can.

    So with that in mind, for me personally, the canon is what I choose it to be. And many would argue with me to the bitter end over some of my choices, but without a clear structure in this it looks to be completely subjective. This is obviously not a preferred response, I'd prefer to have something definite. But at this point in time, Star Wars does not deal in absolutes.

    As for how I feel about Marvel takeover, cautiously optimistic. Many of us point to how well Marvel has done since Disney bought Marvel. Some point to people like Joss Whedon and Brad Bird working for Disney who grew up with Star Wars and love it like we do. Does that mean these movies won't bomb horribly? I don't know. But for now I choose to be optimistic, cautiously so.
    Dark-Fox likes this.
  3. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    Thank you for the reply Zarkinfrood, I was worried people were stearing clear of the topic out of fear of my intent. I'm glad you understood that I'm not trying to insult anything, the opposite in fact. I really like your cherry-picking approach to canon, seems very liberating and it would make the SW universe more personal. Sounds like a good way of limiting the disheartening feeling of contradicting lore.

    I appreciate your point about the possible future of canon. It seem strange and scary to think of a future Star Wars franchise totally without a cononical standard. It would be too much like the crazy world of comic books that seem to reinvent themselves every few years in my eyes (no disrespect meant to comic fans, it is just too complicated for me).
    I don't understand how the saga got so muddled to begin with if I'm honest; but I'd prefer to keep it as is than have the slate wiped clean so to speak. My hope is that the future of SW respects the artistic integrity of those who have gone before and contributes something cool without stepping on any toes. But I guess that's what we all hope.

    So to address the topic, I infer from your post that there is an all too common problem with conflicting stories. Do you feel that newer works are more careful about this than the early days of EU?
  4. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    I think they were certainly more careful for a while at least. Sue Rostoni before she retired did her best to preserve a certain continuity. Even so, certain things fall through the cracks. Sometimes small things, like references to Vaapad in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, and larger things like Ahsoka Tano. (A perfect example of someone I choose to reject from my canon.)

    But I'm not sure that I'm fully against writers contradicting each other on minor levels at least. I mean large things, like the death of a character should be upheld, but small events and interpretations of events let authors interpret their characters in new ways. Sometimes I hate this, examples: Shadows of Mindor, Deathtroopers, and the Jaden Korr books. But it allows it to branch, also allowing the community to grow in different directions. Again, this can and is painful, (see examples above again) but it may be good for us in the long run. Keep in mind that none of this will prevent me from ranting about the next Jaden Korr novel. It would take an act of God for that. I guess what I'm trying to say is, much as we love it, we can't be so attached to it that we can't let it grow creatively. Even if it hurts sometimes.
    Dark-Fox likes this.
  5. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    I'm surprised by your Ahsoka revelation, don't you like her?

    Good point about allowing the saga to grow creatively, I certainly wouldn't want to limit artistic interpretations on characters. However I have found that sometimes those interpretations can seem out of place. As an example, I remember reading Truce at Bakura (a long time ago, admittedly) and found the author's version of Luke to be more reminiscent of the Luke from A New Hope, which is fine except that I think Luke matures dramitcally throughout the OT.

    It surprises me that there isn't more stringent continuity quality control, someone to proof read it and say "you have a real gift for depicting a young Luke Skywalker so we should change the stories timeline to an earlier point." That way artistic interpretation isn't compromised and the story fits into the timeline better.

    Anyhow, I'm glad that it isn't just me who has needed to develop a coping mechanism to deal with continuity. I haven't read any Jaden Korr novels but the name does ring a bell. Wasn't he or she a character from the Jedi Knight game? What is it about the stories that make you rant?
  6. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    In my opinion, the EU has no place for anakin having an apprentice. Totally subjective, but her existence offends me.

    Jaden Korr was from Jedi Knight III: Jedi Academy. The book follows his adventures with insane dark-side clones, bizarre events I blotted from my mind, and soul transfer. Not palpatine style, technological soul transfer. Weird junk that I disliked.
  7. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    Ahh so your almost addicted to Star Wars in that you'll read it no matter how bad it can get? I can understand that :)

    It's a funny thing about Star Wars that even if there is a plot point that is so far out to be obsurd, if is is presented well it becomes way more believable. I remember playing KotOR back in the day and absolutely loving it but in retrospect I now find to contain some strange stuff that I'm not sure fits. The Nightsister Magic of The Clone Wars is like this for me too.
  8. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    I won't read anything quite. After reading Death Troopers I won't read that author anymore at all. I heard Red Harvest by him was even worse, so I'm glad I skipped it. The Jaden Korr one it's very much: "Let's see if this can genuinely get any worse."
  9. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I didn't mind the personality transfer in the Jaden Korr books - it's not so different from Darth Bane 3 or the 'flash-learning' process that the Clones were put through. It also sets up an interesting question for later in the timeline (if we are allowed to get that far).

    My EU is the two later Jedi Knight games and the books. At nearly 57, I feel a little too old to be reading comics (not that I've ever seen any in ordinary newsagents, anyway). TCW isn't broadcast on a channel that I can access (not that I watch a great deal of TV) - if they want to put it on an ordinary broadcast channel I'd probably have a look, but the character drawing in YouTube clips that I've seen doesn't seem to me to be anything like a good rendering of the actors in the films. And if I want more information, there's always Wookiepedia!
    Dark-Fox likes this.
  10. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Well, I'd agree. I only starting buying comics when Legacy started (as in buying monthlies), and that feels old to me. A TPB suits me just fine, if at all. TCW I can hit or miss, but a good book suits me fine :)
  11. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    Sinre what is a TPB?

    Follow that thought Tim; what interesting question gets set up for later in the timeline?

    I thought the same as you about TCW at first but after a few years the real actorsd and animated characters have become one to me. I do wish RotS could be re-dubbed using Matt Lanter's voice for Anakin. It's a funny thing that I like the character so much more now we have an actual actor that can portray him.

    Speaking of TCW, there are only three people who replied to this thread and none of you like the show. Is there a bit of resentment towards it because of the way it steamrolls through established canon? Zark and I mentioned the Mandalore retcon earlier but that might not upset people to any great extent because of the whole Karen Travis thing.
  12. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Trade Paperback, a collection of comics, usually an arc or series of arcs, from a comic book series.
    My resentment for TCW stems from the fact it is revamping a timeline that "I was happy where I was" with and it doesn't even work with the films, namely RotS. I simply don't understand how Anakin could have been knighted so early and had a Padawan and so many other things TCW has done.
    Dark-Fox likes this.
  13. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    Hello Zeta pleased to meet'cha :)

    Thanks for the TPB clarification, I never got into comics so had never encountered that abbreviation before.

    Are you refering to the Ahsoka plotline/hole? That Anakin doesn't make any mention of her in RotS?

    Also, iirc in the early days of TCW is was thought of as a continuation of the Genndy series which is whay Anakin is already knighted. It lloks like Lucas, Filoni and team backslid on that as the series went on. I wasn't happy about that because I loved what Genndy Tartakovsky and team brought to the saga so to see all that swept aside is sad and somewhat insulting.
  14. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I am referring to everything, the retroactive addition of Ahsoka, Anakin and Dooku dueling several after AotC but before RotS instead of never, the way the CIS has been portrayed, and so many other things. I am perfectly happy with the Clone Wars multimedia project timeline of the Clone Wars, hence "I was happy where I was." I simply refuse to watch or accept TCW because of everything it is doing.
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Nov 8, 2012
  15. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Riptide Spoiler: Has any of clone-Jaden's One Sith programming survived, and if so, how much? It may be a moot point now, of course, after Apocalypse!

    Problem for me is that too major a change of appearance from the films would leave me cold - it might just be a consequence of viewing the clips in a very small format, though - but I simply didn't recognise Anakin (if it was really supposed to be him) on the Mortis clip that I saw. :(

    Mandalore has been re-retconned into a shape that (hopefully) more-or-less satisfies all. As for Anakin's early Knighting, I can see that happening in wartime.
  16. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    That. Honestly, it's as if they just decided that all previous work was worthless so it was time to just trash it in favor of this new timeline. I confess to finding it somewhat offensive.

    I know some people are against this sort of thing, but I would be okay with multiple canons like DC and Marvel. They have their alternate earth's with alternate canons that don't have to intrude on the one you like.
  17. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Hi, welcome here

    I don't think you have followed the situation very closely if you think that a) the Mandalore additions didn't upset people and b) whatever it is your saying about Karen Traviss has any bearing on the situation.

    There is a huge level of resentment towards TCW and its canon destroying tendencies, and how it frankly altered what LFL would be publishing book wise - as in the cancelled Imperial Commando & Boba Fett novels.
  18. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    Oops, I suppose my previous words could do with some clarification. What I meant was when there was a discussion forum on starwars.com Karen Traviss was very active in the Mandalorian circuit of threads, which I know because I was there too. At the time of her Republic Commando series there was some conflict on the boards about Clone Army numbers or somesuch.

    I didn't get involved in those arguments but carried on supporting her works and enjoying them very much. Fast forward a year or so when TCW season two aired and I watched the Mandalorian Plot episodes with growing dismay. I thought I knew all there was to know about Jango Fett, the Mandalorians and the Death Watch. That was pretty much when I left SW, only returning earlier this year after coming to terms with the changes and giving thge saga another go. (I was just upset but deep down I still loved it and ultimately couldn't stay away, plus I was in the initial throws of a protracted bereavement and distanced myself from all that I loved in order to avoid negative associations).

    When I came back I learned that Karen had stopped working with Lucasarts I also learned that a fairly vocal group weren't unhappy to see her go (just listen to the forcecast clone wars roundtables from season two). So what I meant by "but that might not upset people to any great extent because of the whole Karen Travis thing" was that I was under the assumption that the majority of people were not of the same mind as me and shared the views of the forcecast hosts.

    I certainly didn't mean amy disrespect to anyone. Moderators, please don't close this thread. My intentions here are not to open old wounds and grudges, or stir up any resentment.

    The point of this thread was to ask how others have dealt with that process of seeing something you care about being altered in order that I don't go through the same sort of thing again now I'm getting back into it. Also, I was hoping to discover what other EU works have had the same sort of thing happen to them so that I am forwarned when I read them. I am also hoping to find a way of reconciling TCW and EU, both being things I don't want to lose.
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    IMO there are those who like KT's work (me among them) and those who - to varying degrees - don't, on this board!

    For me, TCW is mainly a non-event as (a) I can't access it and (b) there are only a few novels set in that timeframe - but, like Rob, I was deeply dissapointed that the remaining Commando arc suddenly dissapeared.

    Leland Chee, Jason Fry and Pablo Hidalgo seem to have (at the expense of compressing the pre-TCW stories into the new TCW timeline) done an amazing job of retconning everything together (all but six comic issues, so I understand).

    There have apparently been minor retcons on various EU works in the past - but nothing on that scale.

    What might happen in the future (re. the new films) no one knows, as yet - we don't even know when they will be set in the timeline.
    Dark-Fox likes this.
  20. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    It's interesting reading these different perspectives on how each of you have approached TCW. Because I've pretty much come the opposite way, from movies to Clone wars to books, my viewpoint is different apart from the Republic Commando series debacle.

    Do any of you have any feelings on how Dave Filoni is trying to keep as much EU intact as he can, referencing it whenever possible in the show?
  21. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Sorry if I came on too strong above :)

    You've been away and missed a lot, far more than I'll go into here :p.

    As for the Forcecast, I think that show is terrible. I never really liked it, but then when a petition was created to respectfully ask George Lucas to maintain the EU one of the hosts went way overboard and called EU fans who supported the petition "kooks" and made some comment about how 'we' were what was wrong with Star Wars - well they completely lost me at that point(not that they ever really had me anyway :p)

    As for Mr. Filoni - I won't blame him for doing what he is told, keeping his job and working in a universe that he loves. That said I'm pretty hesitant to give him much credit here. Yes, he has done some good things - but he's become essentially a GL yes man, if he wasn't in the first place.
    Last edited by Robimus, Nov 11, 2012
  22. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    Whoever is in charge, they need to research.

    I personally hate a lot of stuff in the EU novels, but I don't like to see huge retcons/de-canonizing. It's disrespectful, messy, annoying and LAZY.
  23. zark Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2009
    star 4
    Yeah... Most of this discussion goes completely over my head? Is this a podcast/talkshow/interview thing that was done?
  24. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    The Forcecast is a(I think) weekly podcast thats produced about all things Star Wars.
  25. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    It's cool Robimus, I should have been a little clearer ;)

    You have me curious about what else I've missed. The goal of this thread was to get advice on how others have dealt with this continuity changes. You're holding out on me by not telling, but if it's too controversial or personal I understand your reticence.

    Calling other fans "kooks" is not cool. I didn't hear that but I'd be pretty annoyed by that too. The way I see it, in paying for a book, comic or anything else you enter into a implicit agreement with the author that what you have bought is in some way significant to it's subject matter unless otherwise indicated (eg, Infinities comic series). To have that material you have paid for be subject to change on the whim of one person is just crazy to me. So to be a little put out about having your time and money wasted and to be called a "kook" to boot is bang out of order.

    I don't listen to the regular force-cast podcast as I find I just don't have the time but I have enjoyed the Clone Wars Roundtable weekly shows that discuss each episode with the hosts Jimmy Mac and Jason Swank and a panel of guests. Although I like the show, I have found the views of the hosts to be a little anti EU for my liking at times. I recall that during the Mandalore Plot episodes from season two they were quite dismissive of the changes to continuity regarding Jango Fett, Mandalorians and Death Watch with the view that it's GL's universe he can do what he wants. My view has always been that if that's the case maybe he should be more like JK Rowling and not let anyone else in.

    To be fair, the panel often includes Kyle Newman, Paul Bateman and Jay Shepard who add a more balanced opinion because they respect the EU a lot more.

    I admit there are a few things that don't make sense to me personally. Having the Emperor reincarnated in the bodies of clones sort of takes away from the story of Anakin Skywalker bringing balance to the force. I love the Old Republic era storylines but some of the ideas are a bit far fetched to me, like the Emperor who can drain an entire planet of life and all. In my D&D days we'd call that munchkinism (in this case on the part of the DM: ie,author).

    However, once that idea has the Lucasfilm stamp on it, I think must be considered as meaningful to the series as any other piece of lore; just because I may not like it doesn't mean other people agree with me. So I agree that the person doing the stamping had better know their stuff.
    thesevegetables likes this.
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