Commander Cody, a sad end

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Kev Snowmane, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Palpatine had nothing to do with the breeding of the clones; the Kaminoans and training sergeants had no contact with the outside galaxy save for Jango and Zam Wessel, who came and went. Besides, the 501st wasn't formed until after the Battle of Geonosis.
  2. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I'm sure Palpatine has his ways of influencing the Kaminoans, and he could have had the 501st grown after the Battle of Geonosis...
  3. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    But that still doesn't work, because Rex, Coric, and many other clones in the 501st were at Geonosis, before the 501st was created. So no, Palpatine didn't order "new" clones for the 501st. However, there were more troopers clones just before Episode III, grown in Spaarti jars so they only took a year max to grow. Those clones were more loyal and couldn't shoot as well, but many of them were at the Jedi Temple. On the other hand, the older clones, like Rex and Cody, were just "standard" loyal and shot spectacularly. Hence why some stormtroopers were bad shooters: they were Spaarti clones, grown in a hurry, and not given as much training.
    Last edited by Revanfan1, Jul 27, 2013
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  4. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 1
    First off, do you seriously think every single Jedi youngling was in that tiny chamber? There were five or six in there, and hundreds total in the temple. We only get small snapshots of the battle.

    Second, they're smart enough to figure it out. So even if we miraculously assume that they somehow avoided every single child and Anakin killed every last one of them, they're still dandy with working for the guy who does it.

    Third, they go on to spend the next two decades willingly enforcing a regime of tyranny, terror, and genocide. There is no difference between the clone troopers and stormtroopers. Even starwars.com says, "The Stormtroopers are the latest evolution of the Republic's clone troopers. Their armor is advanced, and they no longer take guidance from the wisdom of the Jedi Knights. Instead, Stormtroopers are employed in the most brutal of Imperial strikes, commanded by cruel officers and governors."
  5. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    "I hesitated for a moment when I received Order 66 because the last thing I expected was a Jedi coup. Did I feel betrayed? You bet I did. I thought of all my men who died under Ki-Adi-Mundi's command, and if I'd known then that he and his buddies were gearing up to do the Separatists' work for them and overthrow the government, I'd have shot him as a traitor a lot earlier. He betrayed the trust of every one of us."―Commander Bacara

    So, even if though they are smart enough to figure it out, they didn't try because they had no reason to assume Palpatine was lying. He was their leader; why would their leader lie to them? As said in the quote above, they did feel betrayed and they did assume Palpatine was telling the truth. And then there's this:

    "What I remember about the rise of the Empire is… is how quiet it was."―Retired clone trooper
    They absolutely didn't want to kill all those kids. They had their orders and they followed them. And they didn't like being stormtroopers; especially the older clones made on Kamino and not the Centax II clones. Yeah, they know their orders and their officers suck. Even as far back as the Clone Wars they hated any non-Jedi officer with a passion, calling them "mongrels." But they still followed orders, because they were good soldiers. I think Cody's quote in the first post proves he hated working for the Empire, but he just had to because those were the orders and if he didn't like them...tough. He was a soldier. And besides, starwars.com is a bad case of over-simplification for any kids who happen to be reading. So yes, they'll make "Empire" bad and "Rebels" good, never mind that for many stormtroopers it was just either a job or following orders; they weren't truly evil.
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  6. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    What does it over-simplify?
  7. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Everything, in the databanks, usually for the sake of kids reading it. Jedi can do no wrong, and stormtroopers are PURE EVIL, et cetera. At least, that's what I get from it. :p
  8. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    The Empire is pure evil.
  9. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    The Emperor is pure evil. Don't confuse the two. Sure, some of the officers are bad dudes, Vader's definitely not good, but just because the stormtroopers work for the Empire doesn't mean they're EVIL. Because what if they truly believed the Emperor was doing the right thing, and just trying to bring order to the galaxy? They just wanted to be part of that? Or how about those who feel it's "just a job" because it's what they're good at? Does it make them evil? 'Course not. Remember, very few people in the galaxy knew the Emperor was a Sith Lord. The others thought he was just the man who ended the Clone Wars and the Jedi threat, trying to bring peace to the galaxy.
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  10. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I didn't say that Stormtroopers are pure evil. I said that the Empire they serve is pure evil.
  11. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Well, that's debatable. Yes, it's a dictatorship, but with the right ruler it could have gone from "dictatorship" to "monarchy." It just had a bad leader: Palpatine. Look at post-ROTJ EU to see what the likes of Pellaeon, Jag Fel, and Roan Fel did for the Empire. It certainly wasn't a "bad" government anymore.
  12. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    It didn't just have an evil leader, it had an evil FOUNDER. Planets with civilian inhabitants were destroyed without notice and unneccesarily.
  13. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, yes, but again: it all comes back to Palpatine. Palpatine ordered planets destroyed and sterilized, Palpatine ordered mass executions, Palpatine caused it all.
  14. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Evil by ignorance is still evil.

    Order as in butchery intimidation, enslavement and oppression?


    If that job is slaughtering defenseless innocents, then yeah it makes them evil. It's only "just a job" to them because they have no conscience.


    No, they're not evil, they just enforce evil by methods such as mass murder of defenseless innocent civilians for the purpose of intimidation, or for Palpatine's lulz. Because they're soulless lemmings that don't know any better, they're not evil. They can't qualify as good or evil, because those things require free will, which the troopers don't have, even in their own minds. The troopers are about as evil as a meat popsicle can be.

    Or, you can go by what TCW says and they do know better, but they slaughter people anyway.
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  15. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    The stormtroopers might not even like doing it, but they just do it. There are those like the Hand of Judgment, who deserted because they didn't like what they saw. Maybe dozens, hundreds of other stormtroopers didn't like what they saw and just didn't have the guts to desert. In fact, in the beginning of Allegiance, the officers ordered the stormtroopers to execute civilians and several of them blatantly did not pull the trigger.
  16. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Hey that's great, but it's long established that the stormtroopers are a symbol of the Empire's terror.

    Not liking something because you know it's wrong, but then doing it anyway is evil.

    For every Hand of Judgment or other dubious example of Imperials that aren't butchers, there's a million examples of what the Empire and the stormtroopers actually were.
    [IMG]

    A good one is the incinerator trooper, clones raised to be pyschopathic pyromaniacs, handed a flamethrower and then pointed at a settlement and told to burn it down, just to make an example.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jul 29, 2013
  17. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, yeah. Not saying every stormtrooper isn't evil, or even that most of them are good. Aside from the Hand of Judgment and Davin Felth, we know of very, very few stormtroopers who could be considered "good" (another example being the 501st in Thrawn's Empire of the Hand; see Survivor's Quest when a stormtrooper gave Luke his helmet so Luke wouldn't suffocate). There are definitely bad, or at least ambiguous, troopers. I'm just saying it shouldn't necessarily be stipulated that because they serve the Empire, that they're evil. Besides, this is a little off topic, eh? Were discussing the clones being good or bad, or even having choice, not the later stormtroopers, who were not all clones.
  18. DatPadawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2013
    star 1
    If the clones aren't mindless lemmings, would there be anything wrong with that? We haven't had any clone troopers in our history as far as I can tell, but we've still managed to rape, pillage, enslave and genocide ourselves just fine.

    I think the idea that people would need to be programed to be persuaded to do evil things is ridiculous.Give someone a slogan, a purpose in life, money, tell them it's what God would want, that they're doing the right thing, "it's them or us", and you'd be surprised at what you can get people who "should know better" to do.

    Maybe the clones are programmed, I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't be an absolute necessity to get the results of order 66.

    Also "good" and "evil" are a culture thing anyway. In some cultures its "evil" for girls to go to school.
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  19. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Well, yeah, for me there is. If the clones are lemmings I sorta feel bad for them and it makes the whole affair darker and more tragic. If they're just Nazi troopers then I don't really feel any sympathy for them.

    I think the clones work better as background mooks who don't say anything other than "yes, sir". People say that's limited and boring, but it allows other more interesting characters to take the spotlight. The clone troopers were never interesting in TCW imo, anyway. They weren't anything more than "yes, sir" in the micro-series and I loved it.

    Also, I think mindless lemmings really fits the entire idea of a clone army. What is the one identifying aspect of clones? They're all the same. They're uniform. Unity. It fits that they would all act the same, that they would be like a mass of lemmings. To have them all totally individual like normal people completely defeats the purpose of having a clone army in the first place, imo. Might as well just have a normal army.

    The idea of clone troopers being this mass of dangerous, programmable humans works for me. It's kinda scary in a science fiction way and works as a cautionary tale for having a mass of disposable clones in the first place, as the Jedi find out. The Jedi played with a mass of unthinking obedient clones and those clones didn't think when Order 66 came down, they just obeyed. It's almost laser guided karma, but I don't think the Jedi quite deserved what they got. It was a little too far for karma.
  20. Toonimator Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2006
    star 3
    Wait...so...this battle was the one in which the Death Star plans were stolen & beamed to Leia's ship? Cuz there's a title crawl that says THAT is the Rebellion's first victory in the Galactic Civil War... :p
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