CT Commander Praji Insignia color: red or orange/gold?

A lot of the various fan Imperial Rank Insignia charts/schemes seem to have Commander Praji's insignia as 4 Blue tabs and 2 Gold/Yellow/Orange tabs. If that's actually so, it would be the only such example of Blue and Orange/Gold being used together without a there also being a Red tab. This has bothered me for a while, as the actual colors seem to be 4 Blue and 2 Red, and the two Red tabs only appear Orange/Gold due to the lighting used in that scene. The Technical Commentaries site seems to simply viewed it as Orange/Gold and gone from there, and all the fans have followed. So, I'd like to put up a few images of Praji and ask: are his right-most two rank insignia tabs Red or the Orange/Gold color so many fan sources interpret them as? Notably, his action figure uses Red, which might indicate that the official color is not the Orange/Gold that mistakenly originates from the Technical Commentaries. What do you think is the true color?

 

It's orange, the red color for the two bars on the right is a mistake.

I examined John Mollo's (designer and creator of the ANH and ESB rank badges for both the Imperial and Rebel Forces) design intentions and it became rather obvious that for ANH he used a color wheel with 6 blue, 6 orange and 6 red bars. By extracting segments of 6 even colors, followed by one with only 4 of the same and 2 of the suceeding color, he arrived at the various rank badges and ranks, illustrated in this post:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ep-vii-spoilers.50024351/page-7#post-54079674

The particular thing about Commander Praji and Commander Jerjerrod in ROJ remains that they are the only OT "commanders" that actually hold this rank (in contrast to all the other "commander-in-chiefs" of something, regardless of actual rank).

 

I was under the impression that high-definition remastered ANH images had proven those last two tabs to be red, not orange?

I vaguely remember watching the Blu-ray and saying to myself "This proves that in this case, Saxton is wrong".

 

I wouldn't understand why anyone would seriously take the 'remastered' video versions with their inaccurate contrast, brightness and colors as a reference to determine the genuine rank bar colors during the original production, as illustrated here: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...iginal-trilogy.50033604/page-97#post-54451690

Considering that the Tantive IV hallway scenes had been considerably darkened ('remastered') it shouldn't come as a surprise that orange now looked red (perhaps DrDre can provide a close-up view of Commander Praji with the accurate colors?).

If in doubt we should rather examine photographic stills like the one below but unfortunately I'm not aware that one with the actor playing Praji does exist.



However this particular gaming card (prior to aforementioned manipulations) clearly reveals that the extra bars are most definitely not red:

 

The card image looks overexposed to me.

As SheaHublin pointed out - lighting can mess with apparent colors.

 

They're mood ranks. They change.

 

The card is pretty accurate. The extra bars were yellow originally. I will share a closeup asap.

 

SheaHublin i can't make out the Orange in that image whereas Lt. Hija & DrDre very clearly shows Gold. That's how i see it.

 

This:

looks fairly red to me - which is what SheaHublin is arguing - that it's red, and only looks gold in the pre-Blu-ray images because the plastic is catching the light from the set lighting.

 

No, this is not correct. The set itself had a slight mint/blue tint, and the lighting was very close to neutral. Here's what it looks like on a 1977 print:



It looks like this on the Technicolor prints, and on 1997 SE prints.

 

I think the rank badge of Governor Tarkin makes it abundantly clear that there were at least three colors they used for Imperial rank badges during production, and it's equally obvious that Commander Praji was displaying the orange / yellow / gold variation (add to this that it fits the system / methodology for which I earlier provided the link with the illustration).

Sadly in Rogue One (and I shall not talk about the ESB era rank badges in the pre-ANH series Rebels like "lieutenant" and "admiral"... ) red is the new "orange" as it's missing from all rank badges except for Tarkin's.

 

Wow, thank you all so much for your insights on this. Especially you, Lt. Hija- I actually had meant to ask you about that chart you linked to- is that truly what WEG used back in the day in the Imperial Sourcebook, in part?

Has anybody actually ever interviewed John Mollo, and specifically asked about the Imperial Uniforms and their Insignia colors?

Does the actual prop badge for Praji actually still exist anywhere? Does anybody have a clear image of it? Of course, even if it does, if the color really is red instead of orange, then it's just Motti's rank badge upside down...

I do still think the badge for Praji is Red on the two right-most tabs, but without actually seeing the exact badge prop itself, in neutral lighting, I cannot be certain exactly what color it is. Mostly because of how there aren't any other Blue/Orange color combinations seen in ANH, but multiple Red/Orange ones.

Speaking of which, if you think you've got John Mollo's system figured out (and I think you really might, your interpretation makes as much sense as any others I've ever seen) I wanted to ask what you think of the unique badge worn by who I've dubbed (in my head-canon) the Syd Wragg Officer after his actor, which somehow keeps getting posted at the top of this posting. That badge- 3 Red on the left and 3 Orange on the right- with a light gray (not white, just compare it with the two ISB uniforms that walk by the same spot right before) uniform and black cap, that badge is the only single row badge with odd numbers of orange tabs, and with orange being the left side color. How does it fit with all the chart based off of Mollo's assumed methodology? I'm genuinely curious here

That officer is also the same "ISB" guy seen speaking to Tarkin on the Overbridge right before Leia and Vader come up to him, but wasn't in the Conference Room scene, even though his badge would seem to indicate that he outranks several of the others there.

 

^Edit to the above, meant to say the reverse of Motti's badge, upside down.

 

Nope - General Romodi has orange on his badge in Rogue One:

 

Iron_lord

Thank you, I stand corrected, shame on me for overlooking Major Romodi. (however, if he were holding the rank of "general" his rank bars would all be red just like General Taggi's...)

Yes, but I had sent them the entire 4-page article with all the ANH and ESB rank badges, yet they chose only to feature those from ESB (in hindsight a big mistake, IMHO) and failed to mention why Admiral Ozzel had more chest pocket cylinders than illustrated...

UK Starburst magazine had featured an interview but, alas, no details on the Imperial uniforms. However, he indicated the samurai-helmeted personnel in black uniforms to belong to "Vader's Guard Corps", hence I assumed that the structure of the Galactic Empire would be divided into corps.
For years I tried to establish a contact with Mr. Mollo (he occasionally attends conventions in the UK) and urged Luasfilm repeatedly back in 2015 to do so, to get the Rogue One rank badges right, as intended for ANH.

No, AFAIK these prop badges have all gone missing. After shooting in the UK had finished a lot of the props were unfortunately discarded. I think the images posted in this thread speak for themselves, the two rank bars on Praji's badge are just too bright to be red (especially when compared to other screenshots that reveal genuine red, like General Taggi and Admiral Motti)

Thank you, I'm considering doing a new chart illustrating all the Alliance rank badges next to the Imperial ones so it perhaps becomes even clearer that there is an easy to understand rank system which isn't nearly as convoluted as other proposals I've seen.

However, I never bought this "Imperial Security Bureau" EU conjecture and I'm somewhat relieved that Rogue One in the form of Director Krennic's uniform suggested that we are instead looking at a uniform with an affiliation to engineering personnel.

Just as Captain Kirk would have his chief engineering officer attend a briefing, I have no doubt that the Death Star Conference in ANH required the presence of engineering personnel to answer technical questions that might have or did come up during the meeting.
And a scene that didn't make it into the film clearly shows that kind of personnel running to their posts at 6:50':



I therefore remain confident that these uniforms (and their 3:3 rank badge color split) actually belong/ed to commissioned officers of the Engineering Corps while in comparison the Military and Guard Corps (e.g. Commander Praji) used different rank badges, as did the "Administrative Corps" with ranks or titles like governor, governor general and grand admiral (if we were to follow historic examples).

 

The newcanon's ranking system is different from yours. I think the yellow-gold bars are associated with research and development - nearly everyone seen with them is on the Death Star, except for Star Wars Rebels Admiral Brom Titus, who is on the experimental Interdictor Cruiser.

We know that the credits of Rogue One list Romodi as General Romodi, at least. Not Major.

(Captain Khurgee has the same badge, but two cylinders not one - so, badges alone may not be all that reliable as a gauge of rank)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Edmos_Khurgee

And on Coruscant, in flashback, Galen Erso, Republic/Imperial scientist and weapons developer, wears an Imperial uniform with a yellow and red badge.

When we first see Krennic (and in flashback) his badge is 6x1 red - but he's never called a General. Tagge's badge may not in fact be a guarantee that everyone with such a badge, is a General.

In the newcanon, white uniform + black trousers represents two major intelligence-collecting Imperial divisions - the Imperial Security Bureau itself, and Imperial Intelligence.

 

It is not "my" ranking system, I can only repeat myself that it was an examination to figure out what costume and uniform designer and creator John Mollo had in mind when he created the Alliance and Imperial rank badges for ANH (and ESB).

And although we have no explicit comments from John Mollo himself, I believe the findings speak for themselves, i.e. we have a coherent and easy to understand rank structure that's equally applicable to the Alliance and the Empire. This is one of the cases which IMHO illustrate beautifully a) Occam's razor and b) how much thought actually went into creating the ranking system, yet easy to understand and grasp for the occasional viewer.

It remains a nuCanon or EU myth that the colored bars represent departments and not rank. A graphic fragment in The Art of Star Wars clearly reveals that John Mollo designed the badges to indicate rank of wearer.

Had there been an honest respect for John Mollo's designs and/or any interest in continuity, both the producers of Rebels and Rogue One could have easily acknowledged that the rank plate or badge of a pre-ESB "general" would have looked like Taggi's and a pre-ESB "admiral" would have looked like Motti's, leaving the other one "for grabs".

They could have easily made Romodi "colonel" or "major" or whatever. So ultimately we have here the design intention of the original ANH and ESB creator (John Mollo) vs. the design alterations of the nuCanon producers, who apparently didn't give the issue too much thought.

So how comes Director Krennic who's not known to have any affiliation to the "ISB" wears the same kind of uniform as previously seen in ANH? Then we have his erroneous looking ESB "admiral" rank badge which fortunately could simple be viewed as an "Engineering Director" rank badge (methodology for the Engineering Corps: 2 equal numbered sets of different colored bars) which presumably became obsolete by the time of ESB.

Suffice to say that it saddens me, that neither the producers of Rebels nor the producers of Rogue One investigated the issue in an attempt to provide the viewers with a clear orientation how to read Imperial ranks based on the rank bars.

Worse, they retroactively made John Mollo look as if he didn't know what he was doing, which IMHO and based on my findings couldn't be further from the 'truth' (especially since the opposite looks true, i.e. the nuCanon producers had no clue).

As for myself I'll continue to watch the OT with the consistent system John Mollo apparently had in mind and cast a blind-eye on the nuCanon depictions regarding the issue.

 

I think Pabawan has already tweeted that the only place where rank badges truly mean anything is TESB:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rank_insignia_plaque

Behind the scenes

According to Pablo Hidalgo, the rank badges "only mean anything in Empire Strikes Back".[32]

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/722595887306842112

So, regardless of what Mollo intended - it's just too messy in ANH to start retconning character ranks to "fit the badges".

Krennic's "Department of Military Research" is a subdepartment of Imperial Intelligence (Rogue One Visual Guide) - hence his uniform.

 

Iron_lord

Thanks for these quotes, there are a few things that require a comment:

@StompinSteveB No, everyone's is wrong in ROTJ. It was EVERYONE IS A COMMANDER DAY at Endor.”

What is he talking about or implying? The two Imperial officers that are addressed as "commander" (Jerjerrod and the officer who captured Luke) correctly wear the ESB captain/commander badge and one cylinder in each chest pocket that identifies their rank as "commander" while all others (including the officer next to the bunker entrance"at Endor" as Solo and his strike team are led away) only have a left chest pocket cylinder which identifies their rank as "captain" (like Captain Piett in ESB).
So Mr. Hidalgo's claim or statement is factually incorrect and wrong.

@Senjo41A The secret is these things only mean anything in Empire Strikes Back.

I find this remark offensive. It implies that the ranking system in ANH doesn't mean anything. Since I'm not aware that Mr. Hidalgo was ever involved with the original production of ANH such an extraordinary claim (especially as it comes at the expense of renowned Star Wars costume designer and creator John Mollo!) requires some extraordinary evidence. The "argument of authority" isn't enough, I've presented my findings that reveal a consistent and easy to understand ranking system as it apparently had been designed by Mr. Mollo.

Iron_lord wrote

So, regardless of what Mollo intended - it's just too messy in ANH to start retconning character ranks to "fit the badges".

I'm unable to follow, where is it anywhere "too messy"? Would you care to explain where you see discrepancies or contradictions within the context of the Original Trilogy?

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ep-vii-spoilers.50024351/page-7#post-54079674

It's the many (IMHO erroneous) deviations we've seen since that make the original work look messy, but that's like putting the cart before the horse, and John Mollo can't be blamed that other people didn't take the time and effort to understand the ranking systems for both the Empire and the Alliance he designed.

 

It's just the way things work with franchises - new media retconning and modifying old media.

In Rogue One: Ultimate Visual Guide - the reason given for the many differing rank badge systems, is that the different sectors have adopted different systems - it's not standardised.

From their perspective - there's no point in making General Romodi and Captain Khurgee have the same rank just because they wear the same badge. Or General Bast and Major Cass. Or General Tagge and Lieutenant Commander Krennic.

Once the newcanon has given characters ranks (often from the EU) it is not likely to change them.

 

I'm split on this. I do wish LFL made a more concentrated effort to correctly portray the pre-DSD rank badges. But at the same time, I think that system was a mess. But I never-the-less love stuff like this.

FWIW, I don't really have an issue with the Engineering Corps and the ISB using the same non-standard uniform. They could both be wearing uniforms intended for non-line services. But then why is Galen Erso in a standard line officer's uniform in the flashback? Argh. My head hurts.

 

On the other hand, in my canon, I like to think the Empire really did have an "EVERYONE IS A COMMANDER DAY" on the Second Death Star. Ya know, for morale.

 

Iron_lord wrote

It's just the way things work with franchises - new media retconning and modifying old media.

IMHO that sounds like a euphemism for covering "continuity mistakes and errors"

Just had the opportunity to be confronted with a very interesting question in another thread, here is my reply:

@Nibelung wrote

Question: since John Mollo did the costumes in both SW 1977 and ESB, why did the Imperial rank insignia change so visibly between films?

I'd love to know the answer myself, but believe I can offer a sound theory:

Now, the rank system he designed for the Acquilan Rangers (hope to be able to illustrate his sketch ASAP) had the color "blue" for the lowest ranks of commissioned offers, followed by "red" and ultimately yellow-orange for top brass.

In the final film (ANH) yellow-orange had taken the middle position, but red was 'superior' to blue as showcased by the Alliance rank plaques (with Willard, "the commander of the Rebel Forces" wearing 4 red dots with one blue dot in the center of his rank plaque, not to dissimilar from his Imperial opponent Admiral Motti).

Yet, the rank plaques in ANH were admittedly confusing for the viewer as we only learned what an Imperial general and admiral and an Alliance general would wear as a rank plaque (and Praji could have just been another commander "-in-chief" of something).

Apparently, Mollo and/or Lucas felt that the ESB should feature a larger variety to get a better and basic understanding. Now, we saw an Alliance "commander" plaque with three blue dots (Commander Skywalker) and three red ones (Major Derlin) that could be distinguished from the higher ranks that simply featured more dots.

Correspondingly, the Imperial rank plaques underwent a major overhaul as the amount of colored bars (like their Alliance counterparts) now visibly conveyed to audiences who had the highest rank, helping to distinguish lieutenant, captain, general and admiral (ROJ added commander to the ensemble, to be distinguished from "captain" thanks to the extra chest pocket cylinder).

In addition (I'm so certain of that that I'd bet real money on it) Mollo and/or Lucas apparently felt the need to emphasize (because a "general" was commander-in-chief of the Imperial Starfleet, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility they got some mail to answer from military personnel that had watched ANH) that the "Imperial Forces" are synonymous with the "Imperial Starfleet" -

LUKE
I won't be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that's for sure...

- i.e. there is no such a thing like the "Imperial Army" (a conjectural invention of West End Games) but only Imperial marines, at best.

While "blue" was intended to be an 'inferior' color in ANH, I'm confident that John Mollo, given his historic knowledge, changed the symbolic meaning of the colors "blue" and "red" for the ESB (and ROJ).

The Earth analogy to what we see in Star Wars is inarguably the ocean (space) and the islands or continents within (land). And the choice of British actors to portray Imperial characters is rather natural and logical, once we acknowledge that the historic allusion Lucas was obviously aiming for was a counterpart of the British Royal Navy of the 18th and 19th Century gone 'bad imperial'.
In the Royal Navy there was a clear uniform color code, i.e. blue for naval officers and red for the marines (nicknamed "lobsters"). Both the film Master and Commander and the Hornblower TV series (costume design John Mollo ) beautifully reveal the distinction and life aboard a Royal Navy vessel during this era.

Therefore, the new Imperial rank plaques in ESB and ROJ emphasized that the Imperial Forces are a combined service, i.e. both "navy" and "army" had been merged into the Imperial Starfleet.

The little tragedy here is that West End Games held on to that distinction which became popular belief, but never explained this: If blue was synonymous for the "navy" and red was synonymous for the "army" how comes that all Imperial officers (from ESB on) wear rank plaques with both colors which therefore makes a distinction between "navy" and "army" impossible?!?!

 

If red is superior to blue, that would mean Dodonna (5 red) outranks Willard (4 red 1 blue).

Oddly, Saxton takes the opposite tack for the Rebellion, having blue outrank red:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/domino.html

and Bob Hudsol (moustached guy with 5 blue pips) be the highest ranking Yavin officer.

Rogue One introduces an entirely new colour for Rebel pips - green. Captain Andor has 2 green pips.

Using the "colours generally indicate different military branches" interpretation given in Rogue One Visual Guide - that would suggest he's in a separate service from the others. Special Forces? That would fit with being given an assassination mission - assassinate Galen Erso - though he eventually chooses not to carry out his orders.

 

Iron_lord wrote

If red is superior to blue, that would mean Dodonna (5 red) outranks Willard (4 red 1 blue).

Not necessarily. ESB clearly illustrates that "admiral" is higher than "general", therefore Admiral Motti outranks General Taggi, yet Motti's rank plaque, too just features 4 red and 2 blue bars, so apparently the extra little (inferior) blue is used to indicate a higher rank and we know from the screenplay that Willard is "the" (not "a"!) commander of the Rebel Forces.

Oddly, Saxton takes the opposite tack for the Rebellion, having blue outrank red:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/domino.html

and Bob Hudsol (moustached guy with 5 blue pips) be the highest ranking Yavin officer.

Odd, indeed. If an Imperial "commander" outranks an Imperial "captain" and assuming rank structure of the Alliance is the same (it's a civil war), then according to Saxton "Major Derlin" should be outranked by "Commander Skywalker".
Good thing that this was fixed by Rogue One, showing "Captain Andor" wearing two red pips which (correctly) puts him one rank below Commander Skywalker who is still outranked by Major Derlin. The officer in charge of the Hammerhead Corvette ramming into a Star Destroyer over Scarif in Rogue One was apparently an Alliance "captain", judging by the two blue pips on this rank plaque

What we saw in ANH was the character of Ristt ('Bob Hudsol') according to the less controversial animated segment of the Star Wars Holiday Special, who had obviously been promoted to "General Ristt" after events of ANH.