ST Common Misconceptions about TFA and TLJ

But why did they come in the main entrance?

 

hmm maybe the base itself isn't connected (which makes more sense), but the trenches are.

 

This probably means nothing, but in BF2 I don't think the tunnel system connects to the entrance but you use it to get closer to the entrance without being seen. You can hop into one crevice and pop out of another one much closer.

 

back to the luke and kylo scene in the hut, I dont think this is a misconception per se, but highly likely what luke saw in ben's mind was what snoke put there. It was told to us in TFA by leia or han that snoke had a huge influence on ben and he had been lost, but we never knew how, originally I thought he got close to leia and ben physically, but now after seeing TLJ I think it was through mind trickery and manipulation bc ben showed dark tendencies. So at that moment snoke tricked luke into thinking ben had been totally lost to the dark side, so when ben woke up he saw his greatest fears come true, which were his uncle, mom, and dad were all scared of him and they would kill him if given the chance and he knew snoke was telling him truths. If this is true than snoke is is one bad mofo lol getting teacher to turn on student without lifting a finger. I think my theory holds weight bc of how snoke in TLJ tricks rey and kylo into false visions as well. So in the throne room when snoke admits as much to rey and kylo that he tricked them kylo was like heck no im done getting shipped off by my parents, and tricked by snoke and said this dude has got to go.

which leads me to pt 2. I seen it posted on here a lot that kylo wants to be supreme leader, and thats what he means by finish what vader started. well the movie plainly tells you that he wants to burn it all down the Force Order and the Resistance and start something new with Rey aka the dark and light unite. well we see rey turn him down and try to kill him or at least fight him, so that is in his mind the very last betrayal that will happen. He is just using the FO now to finish the job of taking out his mother, and rey and has no use for them beyond this and I think hux knows this, and that dynamic between them will be very interesting in episode 9.

 

Which is why Snoke needs a little bit more background or explanation ... Ooops wrong thread ... Sorry had to say it ... Don't worry I will get my coat on the way out ... Closes door!

 

think you might in 9 but ok

 

Well, let’s see where we stand on Ben’s turn when we have the full picture. Back in the OT days we seemed perfectly capable of taking what the films said at face value.


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true I just think it is heavily implied through 7 and 8 that snoke has a big influence on peoples minds in getting folks to do what he wants. Im sure ben had some dark thoughts but how dark is up for debate. what we do know for sure bc of 8 is that snoke can influence what people see in the force, when they force touched snoke made rey see ben go to the light and he made kylo see rey go to the darkside.

 

Don't want to derail this thread...we had a very in depth discussion on this in a now closed thread so no need to revisit. I was just being cheeky ;-)

Back on topic... @christopherblair raises an interesting thought on how Snoke manipulated, well everyone!

 

yeah I mean he is cocky and confident has no weapons and his guards are way back behind him. and in the first throne room scene he waves them of very quickly after he gives kylo a quick force shock. rey was able to resist kylo in TFA but gives up luke's island location to snoke in 2.5 seconds. Its obvious snoke taught kylo some tricks of the trade. That is shown again when he is in rey's mind after the guard fights. I think rey's parents are no bodies but its obvious he is in there and preying on her insecurites about wanting a daddy rather it be han or luke, and as he pts out earlier in the movie if she actually truly knew them she would be disappointed in them.

 

I don't think that was Snoke. Those visions result in Rey and Kylo teaming up -- in Snoke's death. Snoke only said he bridged their minds because he knew Kylo would not be able to hide his conflict from Rey and it would make her think he could be turned. Rey did sense his conflict but that alone didn't convince her to come. The vision was the main factor as it showed the future. So Snoke actually did underestimate them both, as Rey said. And it was his downfall. Oh, and he did indeed underestimate Luke too.

 

So why did the First Order want to go to the First Jedi Temple?
It all seemed nicely set up, and then it seemed like the creators didn't have the finesse of George Lucas' story arc storytelling. I'm not sure they know what the story is meant to be either?

It's a shame because it would be nice to tie everything together, but it seems like they have introduced random characters in a plot with no exposition of what happened before Episode VII given we ended on the high of Episode VI, nor of what is happening in the present time either, and the Original Cast are there for the sake of it.

 

Snoke wants to stop any chance of the Jedi ever returning - ultimately that means destroying Skywalker. That's been the same since Snoke's first scene in TFA although at that point, it's framed around the Resistance not be allowed to find Skywalker. What is the exposition needed to make TFA and TLJ understandable?

 

What's the bond then? If not the ForceTime connection?

 

I think he set it up, but there is a connection between them. Apparently (and if so they should have put it in the film), in the novel of TFA, during their duel, Ren told Rey: "It is you."

But who Snoke is is unexplained. Random dark side user appears after the high point of ROTJ? You don't think that is something important that should be hinted/explained in Flashbacks? If he was Darth Plageuis or Windu, at least it would tie the entire saga together.

For one person who is a random new entrant to be suddenly a threat to destroy the Jedi seems odd. Even Palpatine had a masterplan and took control then eliminated them. And we had exposition in the OT (As well as PT). E.g. we had a connection with Alderaan to feel it's destruction. Not so for Hosnian. For a horrible moment I thought they destroyed Coruscant and the cool Jedi Temple. It seemed very random and didn't fit the scene before it in TFA.

So if Skywalker is so important, what was the point of the First Order destroying Hosnian?

Exposition in TFA needed = who is Snoke. What happened in between ROTJ and now to explain the Republic existing, the Empire gone and a group of nut cases becoming the First Order (and NOT following the ways of the peacekeeping Empire). How the new Jedi order was destroyed. Why Luke left.

Exposition in TLJ = Who Rey is. Further flashback if necessary that wasn't included in TFA. The galactic situation post the destruction of the Republic capital.

The OT had plenty of exposition whilst having great story. The ST seems more focussed on action and characters and bigger this and bigger that. It's enjoyable, but I fear I don't think they have a story. Star Wars was always about a STORY.

 

No I don’t think it’s needed.

I can appreciate some would prefer it though.

 

Ooh. Misconceptions. I've got a good one, then.

TLJ) Rey and Kylo's minds are no longer bridged now that Snoke is gone. He was the only reason they were "connected in the force" and nothing in the film suggests they will continue to see and speak to each other outside of each other's physical presence in a post-Snoke galaxy.

I have no idea why people keep talking as if this is a thing.

 

Are you saying that the quoted is the misconception? Or the fact that their minds are still bridged is the misconception?

 

That these movies are supposed to pick up right after RoTJ

NO! They are set 35 years later, stuff happened in between - accept it!

 

That doesn't really justify not providing some idea of how the situation came to be. It makes the events and struggles in Episode 6 to be pointless.

I bet you many yearn for the Empire now. Now they have the choice between a useless Republic, and this random organisation known as the First Order

 

It’s a question of focus. A major theme of TLJ is that the fight between the dark and the light is an ongoing cycle, not a battle that’s fought once. If Snoke’s rise is presented as a unique threat, with the audience told that this threat is EVEN BIGGER than the Empire, the knock on effect of that is that we are asked to not buy the plausible idea that evil needs to keep being fought, but the more contrived idea that no, THIS time when the baddie is killled, good will win forever. Considering that Snoke was ultimately a red herring and disposable, I think it works better on screen now for Snoke to be a cypher for how mundane grandstanding evil will always be a thing that has to be stopped, but that the truly unique threat now is the more human, more understandable, but terrifying due to his anger and his choices Kylo Ren, who really is something different. We’re spending so much time saying “this film isn’t telling us anything about the main baddie!” When in fact it is, we’ve just not always understood that Ben Solo is the main baddie

 

I'm pretty sure snoke said he implanted those thoughts, bc Rey wanted to believe that kylo could be turned to the light and that caused her to go rush and save him. And that's why Luke said this is not going to go the way you think.

 

The biggest misconception is that TFA posed narrative questions about Snoke's identity and Rey's parents. These questions were the subject of fan obsession well before the film was released.

 

He didn't say he implanted any thoughts. I've seen the movie enough times to know. He said he bridged their minds. I'll try to quote.

Rey tells Snoke he underestimates Luke and Ben Solo and her and it will be his downfall.

Snoke says, "Ohhhhh did you see something, a weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? Young fool, it was I who bridged your minds. I stoked Ren's conflicted soul. I knew he would not be strong enough to hide it from you, and you would not be wise enough to resist the bait."

He riled up Kylo in the scene in which he chastised him about having too much of Han's heart in him and not being enough like Vader. I think that's what he's referring to when he says he "stoked his conflicted soul."

In any case, he doesn't mention the visions Rey and Kylo each had of the other on their side (which by the way the Force theme played for that moment when they touched hands and received the visions, as it played when Snoke was killed). He probably saw Rey's vision when he took everything from her mind (which was after he said the above statement), but he didn't seem to think it was anything significant. He was only interested in Luke, in his location, and in mocking him.

 

I'm not sure what the quoted means, but yeah, that their minds are still bridged is the misconception. There's no bridge happening anymore.