ST Common Misconceptions about TFA and TLJ

I don't think it's known if their minds are still bridged because that last time they see one another, it's ambiguous. The sound that begins the Force connection is there, but the music is playing instead of silence. I was not sure what that meant. It could mean Snoke is back, for instance.

I just can't let go of the notion Snoke may be alive because the movie covered projections (which are kind of illusions) and Darth Maul survived being chopped in half per TCW.

 

I agree that's the only reason why he wanted her for Luke's location but to get her there he needed to trick her into thinking ben was savable and even your quote which does seem about right is heavily implying that he was pulling the strings behind what she saw and the supposed light within him. Plus in the elevator she says to ben that she sees him going to the light and he says to her I see you going to the dark. so it's like snoke gave both of them what they wanted to see, to stoke the fire so to speak. because the force Vision was showed to be false at least so far, bcRey stayed light and kylo stayed dark neither one Switched

 

Snoke says specifically that he knew Kylo would not be able to hide his *conflict* from Rey. That was true as his conflict is why Rey reached out to him in the hut--she'd begun to sense there was more going on with him. But his conflict wasn't why she decided to come; the vision was. Snoke thought the conflict alone would bring her and he was wrong about that (he actually did think her more foolish than she was). He wouldn't have given them the visions because the vision is what made Kylo see that he could kill Snoke. It's in the future. Snoke wouldn't have inspired his apprentice to kill him. Also the Force theme means it's from the Force not Snoke. Basically the visions are something Snoke didn't see coming.

 

once again the force Visions was proven to be false at least so far because Rey says she sees kylo coming back to the light and he says he sees her going to the dark so either the vision was wrong or the vision itself was manipulated by third-party I'm going it was manipulated by third-party aka snoke. as far as the music cues go. I don't really mean anything because I at point there were using plagueis theme for snoke and I don't think that makes him who that is

 

The Force visions are true in the sense that Rey and Kylo came together. And they may end up ultimately true in IX. The issue is that each could only see the other on his/her own side. That divide came to pass at the end of the throne room scene. I don't think the Force theme would have accompanied the scene in which they received the visions if they were false. It's there to let the audience know something true and um Force-important is occurring.

ETA Also it was the Emperor's theme playing when Snoke said lines very similar to the Emperor in ROTJ. That's deliberate too, as Snoke is paralleling the Emperor.

 

Or its just music we shall see, back on topic for now, good debate

 

I don't think the vision was wrong at all, on the contrary, it showed exactly what happened, it's just that neither Rey nor Kylo Ren truly understood it. Rey saw Ben fight alongside her against Snoke's guards, from her point of view, that's a clear sign that he would come back to the light. After all, why else would he work with her and fight Snoke's guards if he hadn't turned against the First Order?
From his point of view, he saw her fight alongside him against Snoke's guards. He took that as sign that he should go against Snoke with her help. After all, he was sure of himself and clearly saw himself overcoming the light, thus he had no reason to assume that he would switch to her side. Which in turn could only mean that she had come around to side with him.

Neither took into account that there could be circumstances where they would temporarily align with each other without truly taking the other's side in the longrun. In other words, they were too confident and too optimistic about what they had seen. Too much wanting to believe that their view was right to even consider that there could be more to it.

 

The Force theme is never "just music" in Star Wars. It is always significant. Also there was a recent quote from John Williams in which he said that the Force theme plays when a scene is about the Force. And um Rey's theme plays when it's about Rey and... It kind of was a starting the obvious quote... I am too lazy to find it though.

The music in TLJ is really specific, whether the Force theme, Rey's theme, Kylo's theme, the Resistance theme, Leia's theme, the MF theme, the Emperor's theme, etc. It always exactly matches who or what the theme is for -- Force, Rey, Kylo, etc.

 

Disagree, it played bc it was a force vision, the tune itself doesn't make the vision a 100 percent truth. Snoke is neither a sith or an emperor per se, but that cue was still played.

 

Totally disagree kylo killed snoke not bc of the rule of two, kylo and snoke are not sith, kylo killed him bc snoke admitted to tricking both him and rey and manipulating the situation. to me Tfa and Tlj make it pretty clear snoke is just using ben. snoke only is training him to try and draw out luke from hiding. Tlj makes it pretty clear kylo has no interest in power or ruling his motivation is revenge.

As far as the visions themselves go we don't know exactly what they saw. Could have been the throne room scene or something else snoke set up. because if snoke is powerful enough to set up a bridge between two Force users many light years away there's no doubt in my mind that he could also influence what they see in the force.

 

You need to see the film again.

Both Rey and Kylo's visions were 100% correct. She saw him no longer bowing before Snoke. He saw her standing by his side when the moment came. Both assumed that meant the other was going to turn. It's all there in the elevator scene.

Both were right about what they saw, but both were wrong about what that meant. Just like Anakin's vision of Padme dying in childbirth was 100% correct. And Luke foreseeing what Kylo would do to his life's work.

They were all correct. What all the parties above failed to see was context.

 

I like more a feasible story and to see the movie 5 times more to find easter eggs or hidden hints for the next one than watching a weird movie 5 times to understand what the director might have meant.

 

People not understanding context in SW? Talk about meta.

 

I got it on the first time. Others seemed to.

It also sounds like you're mad that TLJ wasn't more of a dumbed down experience.

 

it was played because Snoke says lines similar to the Emperor in ROTJ and is in the role of the Emperor in a scene that parallels the throne room scene from ROTJ. It's irrelevant that Snoke isn't a Sith like the Emperor or that he doesn't dress in all black like the Emperor, etc. Paralleling =/= being identical.

Regarding the Force vision, yes it's a vision from the Force which makes it significant. Force visions are always significant and every one in the movies and shows so far that I know of has been true. The Force theme means it's from the Force not Snoke.

 

I would not call TFA (or e.g. ANH or TESB) a dumbed down experience. When it comes to myths and hints that are placed or picked up from previous films I'd rather say TLJ fits to that phrase. Anyway as soon as a director needs to start to explain what he meant, it does not speak for his story telling.

 

I could literally fill this thread with posts from directors of some of the greatest films of all time explaining their films post-release.

The entire concept of the director's commentary for home media is based on the premise.

It's one thing to hate this film. It's another to be this disingenuous.

Regardless, none of this is the topic of the thread I created. There are plenty of other threads for you people to go in and whine about RJ and TLJ.

 

Someone should have told the entire school and history of film criticism that "people explaining the arcs and themes of the film means the film has neither". Could have saved everyone a lot of time.

 

"I have analyzed it a shot at a time with more than 30 groups, and together we have seen, I believe, pretty much everything that is there on the screen. The more clearly I can see its physical manifestation, the more I am stirred by its mystery."

-Roger Ebert on Citizen Cane.

If Roger Ebert had to watch Citizen Cane shot by shot at least 30 times, this movie must've failed and it must be considered garbage.

 

I might as well flush my BFA from NYU-Tisch right down the drain!

 

But I thought everyone fully understood everything there was to understand about Citizen Kane on the first watch.

The best thing about this argument is the sublime goal post shifting.

"This arc makes zero sense!"

"These things in the text and subtext of the film might help you understand it"

"The fact you have to explain them means they're not in the film"

Ooookayyyy...

 

TLJ is a movie that has to be unpacked a bit IMO. It has layers.

 

It is easily the most layered SW of them all.

But shout out to the PT, which is far more layered, particularly on a thematic level, than it gets credit for.

Regardless guys, lets get back on track. I love the analysis over this film, but if we veer too off topic it just invites trolling.

 

It absolutely does.

And yes, I'd agree that both the PT and ST are more ambitious than the OT.

 

Admittedly the PT unpacking was too much unpacking for me... but I can see this point. I feel like the PT was trying to be VERY visual. Really I feel it would have been better as a series of silent movies almost...

ETA: Sorry @jaqen - I didn't notice your request to get back on track!