Communism: Can it work or is it a pipe dream?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 7, 2002.

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  1. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Anyways, if you can't understand American politics (and you don't), don't say you "hate it". I couldn't start to attack British governmental workers because I don't know WHY they do these things. [face_plain]

    Anyways, hating communism isn't the same as hating "all other opinions". To me, people who are communists are ignorant. It's the only goverment idea out there that just doesn't work.
  2. imzadi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 4
    There has never been a successful communist state. Even countries like China have never achieved communism. Therefore I don't see any reason for people to hate something that doesn't exist.

    Communism is both an economic policy and a form of government. True Communism is in fact the total absence of government, where people vote directly on issues (total democracy, not democratic representation). Countries that claim or have claimed to be communist are a mixture between communism and totalitarianism, and I think that is what America (or the West) dislike, because dictatorships are rarely good.
  3. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    The most simple answer is that like Naziism, Communism is an ideology of hate. Instead of race, Communists preach hatred and murder based on personal property and income. The common lie of those who still cling to the idea of Communism, like neo-Nazis who deny the Holocaust, is that the Communist regimes that have been implemented in the world do not accurately reflect the ideology.

    Marx's entire thesis was that the oppressed lower classes would rise up, murder the bourgoisie, and institute a dictatorship of the proletariat. In practice, it has been made abundantly clear that the only way for a Communist regime to function is to revoke freedom. There can be only one Party, and all who dissent from the party must be dealt with. There is no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, and no freedom of assembly, but those are just the tip of the iceberg. Time and again, in every implementation, Communist governments have to kill people to keep them from leaving, and have engaged in mass genocide in order to suppress dissent.

    Furthermore, the economic promises that are at the heart of the system have proven to be false. People still live in poverty, and they still starve, sometimes because of shortages, and sometimes because the Party feels the need to eradicate a certain group from the population by withholding their food.

    It revokes all concepts of personal liberty and political freedom, and in return it provides poverty. None of the countries who have lived under Communism have any sympathy for it, and none of the less-developed countries of the world want it, despite the efforts of modern-day Marxists to push it on them.

    The only people who still cling to it are rich, priveleged, sheltered, white, Western intellectuals who harbor guilt complexes over their position by birth and see it as a "humane" way to impose order on the unruly "little people" who keep interfering with their closed-off little world of ease and self-deification.

    True Communism is in fact the total absence of government...

    False. "True Communism" is a set of ideas first espoused by Karl Marx, and later expanded upon by others, which prescribe a revolution on the part of "workers", leading to the installation of a complex beurocracy which exhibits total control over all aspects of the economy. The mantra is "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need". This is why it essentially saps the will to work and live from every individual living under it. Anyone who goes around spreading the notion that it means something else is in the business of deliberately misleading others.
  4. andakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Marxist Communism, in theory, should better be called "Utopianism." There are so many faults, however, that Communism has never been achieved. Why? Because it's IMPOSSIBLE.
    The so-called communist nations become totalitarian because a small class is very power-hungry.
    Communism is an extremely suppressive form of government, requiring that all individuals work for the "good" of the "nation," while the nation starves them.
    And if a marxist communist revolution were to take place in a capitalist nation, it's sovereignty would be destroyed, and it's freedoms would be lost. That's why we hate them.
    Until Humanity has reached its very limits of wealth, technology, and living conditions; when society can progress no more, THEN perhaps a form of communism would no longer be so horrid.
    But I wouldn't bet on that happening for a VERY long time.
  5. SCOTSSITHLORD Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    To use the crimes of Stalin, or the post WW2 carve up of europe, as an excuse for US antipathy toward communism is incorrect. The US government has always had a tradition of anti-labour, red-baiting, pre-dating the Bolshevik revolution.
    Anarchists were framed and executed for murders they clearly hadn't committed, prominent socialists such as Big Bill Haywood, Eugene Debs, and James Cannon were persecuted using anti-sedition legislation.
    Alexander Berkman and Emma Goldman were expelled from the country for their campaigning on behalf of justice for the framed anarchists.
    The US is a plutocracy, and there is no real attempt on the part of the government to be even handed in any industrial disputes. Labelling opponents of the status quo as reds, or commies, and persecuting them to the fullest extent of the law is a much more effective way of tackling them, than bothering to argue against them. It's partly this history of persecution, from Teddy Roosevelt onward, which explains the failure of any attempts to establish a workers party in the US.
  6. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    1. Watch your tone. KaineDamo, this goes out mainly to you.

    2. Do not bash a whole nation's worth of people because of the political ideas of a few.

    3. Do not label someone something simply because they have a dissenting opinion (ie, Kaine doesn't have to be a communist to have feelings on this issue).

  7. Obi Anne FF admin Celebrations, Europe

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1998
    star 7
    AJA, the dictatorship of the proletariat is just a stepping stone to utopian state that communists wants to live in, it's just another stage in the Marxist stages theory.

    I agree on that communism will never work, but I still think that the workers in Russia had it better at least for a while after 1917 than before.

    Outside Russia that's another thing, but that's because the Soviet policy was more of an imperialistic nationalism than true communism.
  8. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    To use the crimes of Stalin, or the post WW2 carve up of europe, as an excuse for US antipathy toward communism is incorrect.

    You forget Pol Pot, the Chinese "Cultural Revolution", Castro's perpetual suppression of political dissent...

    The US government has always had a tradition of anti-labour, red-baiting, pre-dating the Bolshevik revolution.
    Anarchists were framed and executed for murders they clearly hadn't committed, prominent socialists such as Big Bill Haywood, Eugene Debs, and James Cannon were persecuted using anti-sedition legislation.
    Alexander Berkman and Emma Goldman were expelled from the country for their campaigning on behalf of justice for the framed anarchists.


    Given that dedicated Marxists do indeed actively seek the overthrow of the governments under which they live, these types of actions are hardly surprising, are they?

    The US is a plutocracy,

    Blah, blah, blah...

    and there is no real attempt on the part of the government to be even handed in any industrial disputes. Labelling opponents of the status quo as reds, or commies, and persecuting them to the fullest extent of the law is a much more effective way of tackling them, than bothering to argue against them.

    I don't recall any prosecutions of people for being Communists in the US. Those who participated in espionage for foreign governments are a different matter.

    It's partly this history of persecution, from Teddy Roosevelt onward, which explains the failure of any attempts to establish a workers party in the US.

    The reason Communists have never succeeded in America is that people here know our system works better. We like it, and the fact that even our poorest citizens would be considered rich in some countries is evidence that in general, although not infallible, our system is preferable. In other words, thanks, but no thanks.

    Marxist "thinkers" even recognized this fact, that the people in Western democracies were too content with things as they were to ever embrace a Communist revolution. What they prescribed was an active campaign to infiltrate the media, academic community, and governments of these nations in the interest of undermining and eroding the institutions of the society from within. In other words, the Western democracy must collapse before it can be subsumed by the world-wide Communist dictatorship.

    Obi-Anne- What confounds me is that people continue to treat Communists like misguided children, patting them on the head and saying "oh, but they mean well". This is simply not borne out by history. Even in Marx's own writing, the immense bloodletting required by a Communist revolution is evident.

    To say that the Communists are morally equivalent to the Nazis is even too generous, given that Communist genocide in the 20th century exceeded that of Nazi Germany by a full 40%. They are flipsides of the same coin.
  9. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    What century are you living in?

    The lack of a Communist party in America has nothing to do with some sort of crazy government plot to do so, but rather the will of the people regecting those ideas.
    Also, the two party system in America prevents any third party gaining a significant amount of power. Also, the two party system prevents radicals from gaining political power. You obviously have learned quite a bit about crazy people that were silenced a long time ago, but I would sugest learning more about the basics of American Government before you make crazy accusations of conspiracies.

    Communism is so flawed in so many ways it should just be abandoned. All of you bring up that no government ever was a true communist state. This is true. However, the fact is, there cannot be a true communist state.

    Marx thought the government would eventually wiether away after the workers rose up and threw off the chains of the opressers(sp?). However, there is a basic fact that makes this simply impossible. The more socialist the system becomes, the more government regulation and bureaucracy must be put in place.

    The capitialism that was around the last turn of the century was obviously not the best system, but that system is so far removed from the one we have now in America it has no real relavence.

    However, in this century nations around the world tried Communism and Socialism. The fact of the matter is, they simply do not work. Russia and every communist country failed outright, and only by adopting some aspects of capitalism do they even now survive. Great Britain was the example of socialism. The cradle to grave services gradually brought GB's economy into such bad shape that it was out of the top 10 countries. This brought GB back to a more capitialist, which brought it's economy back. Although both systems may work for a short term, they cannot sustain growth or prosperity, leaving the people poorer than they were before.


  10. Obi Anne FF admin Celebrations, Europe

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1998
    star 7
    AJAI don't recall any prosecutions of people for being Communists in the US. Those who participated in espionage for foreign governments are a different matter[/i}

    Well I think it's an accepted fact, even in the US, that during the 1950's people were prosecuted for being communists, or even for just being suspected of sympatise with communism.

    However, in this century nations around the world tried Communism and Socialism. The fact of the matter is, they simply do not work. Russia and every communist country failed outright, and only by adopting some aspects of capitalism do they even now survive. Great Britain was the example of socialism. The cradle to grave services gradually brought GB's economy into such bad shape that it was out of the top 10 countries. This brought GB back to a more capitialist, which brought it's economy back. Although both systems may work for a short term, they cannot sustain growth or prosperity, leaving the people poorer than they were before.

    I do not agree with you. People have not become poorer for living in a socialist country, the benefits of free social services quite often outweigh the higher taxes. In the GB there are actually more people living in poverty now than some decades ago.

    But we aren't discussing socialism here, we are discussin communism, and there is quite a big difference.




  11. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I think only SOME Americans live out a trend of hating communisim for vague reasons. Sorry if it seems im blasting the entire US Nation over this. This in an intereisting topic. You may continue...
  12. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Well I think it's an accepted fact, even in the US, that during the 1950's people were prosecuted for being communists, or even for just being suspected of sympatise with communism.

    The only people ever prosecuted for crimes were prosecuted for espionage. There was a regrettable "public relations campaign" in the Congress that resulted in some organizations, such as Hollywood studios, voluntarily "blacklisting" Communist sympathizers. In those cases, the worst thing that ever happened was that people lost their jobs, and in the end it ended up helping Communist sympathizers more than hurting them, by providing them with a propaganda tool they could use repeatedly for decades to bang over the head of anyone who raised questions about what their intentions really were.
  13. SCOTSSITHLORD Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    Coolguy, to label individuals as literate, intelligent, and politically diverse as Debs, Goldman, and Cannon, as "crazy", says much more for your political ignorance and narrow mind than anything else.
    I never suggested there was any conspiracy, on the contrary successive US governments have been quite openly hostile to any vestige of radical thought. The Black Panthers, Martin Luther King, any vaguely left leaning political movement have been on the receiving end of COINTELPRO's, run by the FBI.
    It might be slightly off-topic, but I read in another thread about this great US tradition of free speech, so it's free speech for anyone..unless you're a marxist or left-winger of any description, in which case it's perfectly legitimate to clamp down on this sacred right.
    As for mentioning Pol Pot, please it was Kissinger and the NSC who backed his Khmer Rouge forces against the Vietnamese for their own selfish policy reasons, a decision which caused untold suffering to the Cambodian and Vietnamese people. As for Castro, he was a left leaning populist in the tradition of the Mexican revolution, and Sandino in Nicaragua, it was his brother Raul who belonged to the communist party. Fidel's links to the soviet union, are a product of cuba's isolation, and repeated US attempts to restore Batista, or some identikit thug back into power.
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I think the reprecussions of the blacklistings went deeper than simply losing jobs.
  15. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    Obi Anne, you are ignoring the crisis of national health care that Britain underwent. I will agree that for a while the system worked. However, with health care being free, they had a health emergency. The national control did not work, and they have now changed the system. I noticed that you are from a nordic country in your title, and I would agree that the health care there works much better than it did in GB.

  16. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    So when someone brings up the crusades or the inquisition, you say the people who did those things weren't "true Christians", but when someone tries to use a similar argument against you, you just ignore it? ?[face_plain]

    "Also, the two party system in America prevents any third party gaining a significant amount of power. Also, the two party system prevents radicals from gaining political power."

    It also prevents anyone who actually gives a damn from any position where there might be able to do something. Both parties are so alike, we might as well have a one-party system. [face_plain]
  17. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    The comparision to Christianity doesn't have any valitity. Christianity has been around for a very long time and you can point to a time when it was "true Christianity."

    With Communism, the only examples of it are now declared false. If every attempt at it fails, doesn't that tell you something about the system? It isn't like the idea suffered from a lack of trying.
  18. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    To answer someones question from before, why do i like the idea of two people earning the same amount of money? Well, im sure that the PersonA example you used works really hard, and really long hours. PersonB has already done most of the work he needs to do. Why can't the both of them just live with what they need, and a little bit more? Do you want PersonA to live on 1 meal a day and a small house while PersonB has 7 meals a day and a really large mansion? Why can't they both have 3 meals a day, and live in comfortable houses? See, if all the wealth in the world was spread around, everyone would live not richly, but comfortably. But it wouldn't work in todays society.


    First of all, for PersonA and PersonB to be "equal" you first have to take away from the latter and give to the former. To do that, you would need to establish some sort of mechanism to decide what everyone "needs" and then give them the power to enforce their decisions. Then of course, this system must never become corrupt.

    But, you must also address the problem of PersonB's motivation. Why should he/she work to invent/improve a technology when he/she can reap the same rewards by only showing up every day and punching a time clock?

    It sounds wonderfully well-intentioned to say that you want everyone to have a comfortable existence free from suffering or want, but there is nothing 'fair' about it.
  19. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Agreed. If everyone is compensated the same, there is no incentive for a person to excel. Human nature guarantees that if everyone is paid the same, no matter how well they work that the amount and quality of the work will be the bare minimum needed to get the job done. There would be no drive to innovate because there is no reward for doing so. Unequal distribution of wealth helps a society by giving those at the bottom a motivation for working harder, and the consequences of failure give those with wealth motivation to keep working so that they can maintain their lifestyle.
  20. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    The US government has always had a tradition of anti-labour, red-baiting, pre-dating the Bolshevik revolution.


    No it hasn't. It has abused labor, but it hasn't "always" had a tradition of anti-labor. [face_plain] It was the same in every country up until the late 1800s when it became horrible conditions (again, like many countries), but during this time labor unions were created and by the early 1900s everything was fine. So...how has the US gov't had a tradiiton of anti-labor?
  21. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    The only people ever prosecuted for crimes were prosecuted for espionage...In those cases, the worst thing that ever happened was that people lost their jobs...

    People were accused simpoly because someone else named them. People named friends, relatives and people they had worked with ten years ago because that was the only way to get off the charges or have them lessened. It was an absolute witchhunt and really had nothing to do with blacklisting communists or people who were going to be a threat and much more to do with paranoia.

    It hurt many more people then just loosing there job. Many people had to leave the country, many of them could not be employed anywhere else (so they literally starved many times). People lost friends, they were shunned be society. Some people went to prison and many commited suicide.

    Hardly something that worked in their (the people to whom it happened) favor was it???

    As for Communism itself, well I would simply call it a nice idea but one that wouldn't work. The concept of everyone being equal is sorta cool, but simple human nature means that there always has to be competition and a social hierarchy something that just isn't there in communism.

    Eh, but as far as I'm concerned pure Capitalism isn't all the great either...give me something in between :D

    Kit
  22. EvilEmpress Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 2
    Communism and Totalitarianism, there is a difference people. Learn it.

    I think Communism is a beautiful idea in theory, but it doesn't work when put into practice. The reason that it doesn't work is because of human greed. People will never be equal because of the greed factor. This is also the very reason why Capitalism thrives.

    A true Communism has never exsisted. The USSR was not a Communism, it was a Totalitarianism.
  23. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Well, here is a better example of why communism is not good, because it shows that one person does not work hard. Person A studies hard, and on tests at school gets every problem right. Person B is a lazzy bum and get nearly every question wrong. Communism says that they get the same grade, but doesent Person A deserves a better grade than person B? Why not...?

    I dont really hate communism, just I dont like it, nor has it (as far as i know) ever worked. People are not exaclt equal (nearly everyone has some advantages and disadvantages, but are not compleatly equal) and so communism will never work.

    What is pure capitalism? For those who wish to cure their ignorence and not let it evolve into stupidy (me), can someone sum it up quickly?
  24. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Well, here is a better example of why communism is not good, because it shows that one person does not work hard. Person A studies hard, and on tests at school gets every problem right. Person B is a lazzy bum and get nearly every question wrong. Communism says that they get the same grade, but doesent Person A deserves a better grade than person B? Why not...?

    Sounds like the current US public school system.

    "Gee, Dad, I missed all of thq questions but got a 100 because the teacher didn't want me to feel bad."
  25. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    I don't hate Communists, but I don't believe in their system. Why? Because it goes against what it means to be American.

    Why? Here's why:

    The American Dream is to work hard, work up the food chain, pay your dues and get into a postion of money and power. To feel as if you accomplished something worthwhile, proved your worth in this world. That may seem selfish, but that's human nature. It's not human nature to live as part of a group, to have success and happiness as a group.
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