Communism: Can it work or is it a pipe dream?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KaineDamo, Jul 7, 2002.

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  1. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Well, here is a better example of why communism is not good, because it shows that one person does not work hard. Person A studies hard, and on tests at school gets every problem right. Person B is a lazzy bum and get nearly every question wrong. Communism says that they get the same grade, but doesent Person A deserves a better grade than person B? Why not...?

    Sounds like the current US public school system.


    I agree about the school system remark. I don't hate communism, I can understand why it was thought up, but it isn't my motif. Communism was created in Europe and most european concepts haven't done too well over here. Our governmental system has worked off of tweaking European concepts. Communism is a foreign concept to us and it's like the extreme of what America isn't. So I don't hate communists, just don't run your propaganda near me about our eeevvvvill capitalist structure around me. :D Politcal leanings I can tolerate, poltical propaganda I absolutely despise.

    EDIT 1: Articulation

    EDIT 2: Articulation again. :p
  2. Waning Drill Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
    Once upon a time, the word 'communism' meant something. It has since come to mean something else. Deal with it or get caught in the backlash.

    Too often economic systems are immediatedly associated with the system of government that promotes them.
  3. council_of_trent Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 1
    Well, if true Communism has never existed, doesn't that mean that the Communism that has existed is the true definition of it? Don't bark at me for that, I really don't care. Another thing, Communism puts down religion (this has been mentioned before), because it puts a higher power over the government, which takes away the power of the government, which makes the whole thing collapse immediately. 95% of Americans have some kind of religion. It's against some of the deepest American traditions ever known. No, Communism and Totalitarianism aren't the same thing, but USSR had both, so they are associated with each other (because that was the "Red Menace" for 50 years).
  4. AJA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Communism and Totalitarianism, there is a difference people. Learn it.

    I think Communism is a beautiful idea in theory, but it doesn't work when put into practice. The reason that it doesn't work is because of human greed. People will never be equal because of the greed factor. This is also the very reason why Capitalism thrives.

    A true Communism has never exsisted. The USSR was not a Communism, it was a Totalitarianism.


    Communism is by definition a totalitarian system. The word "totalitariansim", which is a relatively new term, was itself devised in part to describe Communism.
  5. tenorjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    The residual distaste for communism is from our ability to find a mutual enemy to focus against. An individual person does not hate an individual communist, but they can hate the system as a whole.

    As for me communism is idealism at it's worst. The concept and the morals behind it are sound but that's where it's pros end. It throws the baby out with the bathwater. It leads to corruption at best and at worst creates a vaccum for the usurption of power. The larger the scale the worse it gets. It's inefficeint, does not promote individual achievement and offers little reward for hard work. People become dependant on the system and are nothing more than building bricks in the wall, as well as the fact that the government takes away what I consider essential freedoms. One centralized power controls all of your aspects of your life, even when this controled by the majority like a democracy, this does not appeal to me and I would fight against such a lifestyle. I enjoy the fact that I can do what I want when I want. Work where I want and make as much as my skills and luck will let me. If I want to work 60 hours and make more than someone who works 20 hours, buy a big house and have a nice car that's my choice. If I want to play Xbox all day and barely scrape by in life, that's my choice as well.
  6. Dagger Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 1999
    star 4
    A lot of this has probably already been said before, but...

    In theory, communism is great. It eliminates class struggle, brings people together, and helps alleviate poverty.

    Then pesky reality invades. I suppose the thing we dislike most about communism is the values put forth by the leaders. Many freedoms that Americans hold dear are prohibited in communist regimes, First Amendment rights being the most important. The leaders are also rather bad people themselves. Before we get into some stupid debate about bad US presidents, yes, there have been mistakes in US policy, such as brutality against Filipinos and Native Americans. But that pales against Stalin's ruthless purges and collectivizing, which killed millions of people.
  7. CUBIE_HOLE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    I think it's funny that communism is against religion, when its roots stem from the teachings of Christ. First of, before people start flamming me, I am a Christian, and I'm not attacking Christianity, okay. Just think about the basic ideas of communism and Christianity. If true communism worked, it would create a utopian society, which kind of sounds like heaven to me.

    Aside from the religious aspect of it, I don't like communism because it doesn't work. It's missing one main requirement for success: perfect people.
  8. Waning Drill Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
  9. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    A smurf society just wouldn't work. There is only one female. Cubie, just because the goal of communisiom is to eveuntually have a perfect Utopian society, i don't think its a religious thing. Even Aethiests would love to live in a Utopian society, but they don't believe in heaven.
  10. CUBIE_HOLE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 4
    KaineDamo, I wasn't saying it was a religious point. I just thought it was kind of funny, because communism is against religion, yet it's early origins go back to one of the largest religions in the world. If anything, I was saying something good about communism. A lot of Americans think of communism as being bad/evil, because so many of our enemies are/were associated with it. However, many Americans view Christianity in a good light, so I was giving it a different perspective, so that people might better be able to relate to it. Basically, I was saying communism is good and it doesn't have a problem except that people can't do it.

    The only real point involving religion was applied only for me. I like my religion, but true communism rejects that. That's a reason why I don't like it, and it doesn't work.

    Things can sound great in theory and look good on paper, but it all comes down to how they work in the real world.

    In the real world, communism sucks, because, like I said, people aren't perfect.
  11. Tod Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 1999
    star 4
    (Early) Christian: "What is mine is also yours."
    Communist: "What is yours is also mine."

    Almost same but not quite.
  12. AJA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Basically, I was saying communism is good and it doesn't have a problem except that people can't do it.

    [face_plain]

    You must read the Communist Manifesto before
    making these kinds of statements. Communism is not about people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya". Not by a long shot.

    Christian: "What is mine is also yours."
    Communist: "What is yours is also mine."

    Almost same but not quite.


    Well stated.
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Wait, so Communism doesn't work?

    Tell that to the thousands of small communes in Switzerland who've lived in peace for hundreds of years. ;)

    Tell that to the communes all over the world prooving that Communism does work.

    Anyone ever been to Utah? The entire Wasatch Valley was made hospitable and livable by Mormons practicing Communism. No not Marxist-Leninism, Communism. It's been around a lot longer than the Marxist hybrid.

    That's what Marx created was a political hybrid. He thought he could take Communitarianism and apply it at the Macro-level. He also threw out the pacifist tendencies of traditional Communism and replaced it with a "revolutionary proletariat", thus ensuring the bloody conflicts to follow.

    The USSR and China both were adherents to Marxist-Leninism, the political-statist brand of Communism.

    And anyone who says Capitalism is perfect has their head in the sand. Either that, or they're just too damn young to have a job and pay taxes.

  14. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    You are wrong about the Mormons. I live here, and am one, but if failed long before we came here.

    They tried it, but the members of the church simply were not ready or rightous enough to do it, so they had to go back to a lesser law, that of tithing. Today church members give 10% of their income.

    Some day we will hopefully go back to that system, but that will have to wait for the second comming of Christ.

    I don't know about small communes, but that is vastly different from a large country.
  15. DarthYama Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    Propaganda. There's a movie called "If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do", which I have not seen, but read a review on some Bad Movie website. There are scenes of dead Christians, a scene where they are brainwashing children by having them listen to tapes with "Communism is good. Christianity is stupid." (Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaaad), and having them pray to Jesus for candy, and then having them pray to Fidel Castro and getting lots of candy. And more dead bloody bodies.

    Same reason we hate Afghanis, and before that Russians, Germans, Japanese, English (probably), et cedera...
  16. AJA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Wait, so Communism doesn't work?

    Tell that to the thousands of small communes in Switzerland who've lived in peace for hundreds of years.

    Tell that to the communes all over the world prooving that Communism does work.

    Anyone ever been to Utah? The entire Wasatch Valley was made hospitable and livable by Mormons practicing Communism. No not Marxist-Leninism, Communism. It's been around a lot longer than the Marxist hybrid.

    That's what Marx created was a political hybrid. He thought he could take Communitarianism and apply it at the Macro-level. He also threw out the pacifist tendencies of traditional Communism and replaced it with a "revolutionary proletariat", thus ensuring the bloody conflicts to follow.

    The USSR and China both were adherents to Marxist-Leninism, the political-statist brand of Communism.

    And anyone who says Capitalism is perfect has their head in the sand. Either that, or they're just too damn young to have a job and pay taxes.


    Here we get to the heart of the matter. I would argue, and I think political scientists would generally support this, that if it is not based on Marx, it is not Communism, at least not in the realm of political discussion. This is clearly where some of the confusion comes from. Perhaps those who are proponents of "communal living" would be better served to use another term, such as "communalism" in order to avoid having others misinterpret their views.

    Propaganda. There's a movie called "If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do", which I have not seen, but read a review on some Bad Movie website. There are scenes of dead Christians, a scene where they are brainwashing children by having them listen to tapes with "Communism is good. Christianity is stupid." (Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaaad), and having them pray to Jesus for candy, and then having them pray to Fidel Castro and getting lots of candy. And more dead bloody bodies.

    Same reason we hate Afghanis, and before that Russians, Germans, Japanese, English (probably), et cedera...


    I suppose the 100 million people killed by Communist genocide in the 20th century are "imaginary" then? Additionally, bad movies aside, Marxist revolutionaries did target and slaughter Christians, and the Chinese did in fact perform attempted "brainwashing" on POWs during the Korean War.
  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Coolguy,how could you possibly classify what the pioneers did as a failure?
    You may be right about the latter settlers, but farming and other industries were entirely cooperative.

    AJA:

    "The USSR and China both were adherents to Marxist-Leninism, the political-statist brand of Communism."


    Notice I mention "political-statist brand of Communism when reffering to Marxist-Leninism. I do make a distinction. I also mention Communitarianism. This is the grassroots, apolitical Communism.

    Marxism,Leninism, and Stalinism are different. But, their impetus is derived from the communal traditions and general philosophy.

    "Communal living" is an essential ingredient of Commumism. It abolishes private property, wages, and worker divisions.
    Small Communism does work. State Communism does not.

    BTW, I'm a libertarian. But that doesn't mean I have to suffer from idealogical tunnel vision either.
  18. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    Curious, why is communism always referred to as "perfect in theory" and the perfect utopian society if people weren't flawed? Couldn't the same things be said about capitalism?
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    It's kinda like a brocheur(sp?). Sure that tropical island may look great on paper, but in actuality it's a PoS.


    EDIT: I don't spell it every day, jes so ya know. :p
  20. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Actually, Capitalism assumes people are imperfect and so is a more realistic, flexible theory and practice.

    On a national scale, capitalism is a better system because it allocates resources based on demand, not on some bureaucrat's idea of demand.

  21. Jirin_Raman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 4
    You must read the Communist Manifesto before making these kinds of statements. Communism is not about people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya". Not by a long shot.

    Indeed. We have only seen totalitarian "Communist" nations thus far. The Socialism outlined in Marx's Communist Manifesto is nowhere near the failures we've seen thus far.

  22. Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    "Actually, Capitalism assumes people are imperfect and so is a more realistic, flexible theory and practice. "

    ShaneP, you're right. Let me rephrase the question: Given a society of "perfect" people, why should Communism automatically be considered the best system? Under Capitalism, the perfect people could decide how much they want to give and take from society, there just wouldn't be the casualties of people who can't "make it" like we have today.
  23. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Humans are individualistic by nature. Capitalism supplies them with it. Communism/Socialism takes that away. IMO.
  24. AJA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    Indeed. We have only seen totalitarian "Communist" nations thus far. The Socialism outlined in Marx's Communist Manifesto is nowhere near the failures we've seen thus far.

    Marx does not outline Socialism in the Communist Manifesto, he outlines Communism. If you had read it, you would know that the document does not describe an economic system, but rather a political philosophy, which is summed up in the conclusion:

    The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement...

    In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

    In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

    Finally, they labor everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

    The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

    Workers of all countries, unite!


    What the document outlines by way of philosophy is the abolition of the concepts of private property, family, and all other existing social conditions, and a strict insistence that the revolution sought by Communists can only be achieved through violence.

    The document goes out of its way to point out that Communists do not seek the implementation of a simple economic system of socialism, they seek the destruction of every element of existing society, be it government, economics, religion, family, morality, art, literature, etc. All of this will then be replaced by a system in which each individual performs work, the product of that work is turned over to the government, and the existence of the individual is subverted by the community. There is no marriage, and children are raised not by their parents, but by the state.

    This is precisely what every Communist regime has attempted to implement, and to a large degree, most of them have succeeded. Marx's views could not be more clear, and the regimes that resulted from them could not be more clearly in line with what he promoted.

    The slaughter of 100 million people by Communist regimes in the 20th century is evidence of what happens when you attempt to forcibly impose a philosophy based on false premises on a large population of human beings. As I said before, in my view they are no better than Nazis, and the failure to treat them as such can only be motivated by ignorance or a fundamental inhumanity on the part of those who do so.
  25. aardvark Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 1
    Communism will not happen now because the revolutionary conditions do not exist for it. Marx was far-sighted enough to forsee the bourgeois revolution that now dominates global culture. However, he assumed that the workers in the sweat shops of Manchester etc. would eventually have enough of being exploited and overthrow their masters, siezing the means of production. What Marx was unable to forsee was globalisation and the impact of speedier international transport and communication. The sweatshops still exist, and the exploited working class still exist, but they are no longer in Manchester (now a thriving metropolis) but in the Third World. The working classes of the developed world were instead turned into the consumer society of today. The question is historically redundant - no one in America or Britain (even ghettoised minorities) is disenfranchised enough to want to give up the benefits of a consumer society - a lesson decisvely learnt in the failed Paris revolution in 1968. However, we live in a false reality - much of the world's population lives in poverty.
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