PT Comparing the Dooku and Vader Final Fights

So of course the duel at the start of ROTS and the duel at the end of ROTJ are very similar. Sidious watches while a Skywalker goes through a "try-out" of sorts to become the next Sith apprentice.





I really think the symmetry in these two scenes is quite remarkable. But what really struck me is the differences between the two fights. In the first one, the Dark Lord of the Sith is still very much in the shadows - it's a game of emotional manipulation.

The second one is emotional manipulation too, but more of a domination-type as opposed to convincing Luke that what he is doing is right.

My question is, if Anakin from the PT was put in the situation Luke was in, what would the outcome have been? Was he a good enough person to resist Sidious's open lures of power?

 

Anakin's situation with Dooku was essentially the same as Luke's, but the difference is that he had anger and hate issues that were greater than Luke's. Anakin believed that he had to destroy Dooku, in order to make him pay for his crimes. Three years of war and multiple encounters resulted in Anakin wanting to kill Dooku. And even though he understood that it was wrong, he couldn't bring himself to show compassion for Dooku. Luke was different because while he had anger and hate for Vader, he also had unconditional love for Anakin.

If Anakin had a stronger sense of compassion for his enemies, then he wouldn't have killed Dooku. But he couldn't bring himself to see how alike he and Dooku were, which is what Luke sees when he stares at his hand.

 

Personally I feel if Anakin was in Luke's spot, it would of ended differently..

 

I think that Anakin would have easily resisted Sidious in ROTJ, but only if he had the same lines of dialogue. He sounds openly evil in ROTJ, while in ROTS he sounds a bit more friendly because he is still in his Palpatine role.

Now, if the ROTJ Palpatine was the PT Palpatine, then yes, Anakin would not have done what Luke did.

 

The comparison is apples to oranges really. I mean the circumstances and conditions were vastly different. Im not sure what Anakin would do if he had been confronted with the truth that Dooku was his actual FATHER this whole time in ROTS? Would he have had a change of heart and tried to bring him back to the jedi side like Luke did to his father? I see the obvious parallels but Luke and Anakin faced much different challenges and if they traded places at birth I'm not sure Luke would have turned out much differently in Anakin's shoes.

 

Anakin also had to choose between Sidious or Windu and in Episode VI Vader aka Anakin had to choose between his son and Sidious in the same situation

A lot of coincidence for me

 

Nice thread!

I think the biggest difference is in Anakin's case, the closest Palpatine directly gets to the dark side is "Kill him now" and "DEW IT"

Whereas in Luke's scenario, Palpatine's outright saying **** like "Hit me bro, go to the dark side it's awesome, be evil" and pretty much stating his intentions as directly as possible

Would Anakin have resisted that? At that point in time, probably. But that's the genius of Palpatine. He knows exactly how to pull his foes' strings to try to turn them into his own playthings

Ugh, ****post, but I'm trying through the cold

 

I don't even remember if Anakin and Dooku had any bad emotional relation to each other. To me it felt as if no one in the scene was concerned about anyone else, no matter who dies or not. In ROTJ Vader, the Emperor and Luke's emotional relations to each other made complete sense... and you were able to relate and understand all three characters emotions and intentions.

 

I did not create this thread as a bash thread.

Anyways, Anakin and Dooku have A LOT of emotional baggage towards each other. Dooku tried to kill Anakin's wife multiple times. On the other hand, Dooku is playing a subtle game over the Clone Wars to try and get Anakin to become his apprentice.

I think both scenes are equally deep.

 

I must admit that I don't remember the movie that much, I probably should re-watch it in the near future. I completely forgot about Dooku being the one trying to kill Padme... Well there were a lot of things going on in the sequels I missed, so it seems...

 

Dooku wasn't the one trying to have her killed, it was Nute Gunray. Dooku just used that to get his involvement in the Confederacy. Anakin was more mad at Dooku for the deaths of the Jedi during the war, for his defeat on Geonosis, for his first kidnapping attempt of Palpatine, for failing to beat him on Tatooine and Oba Diah, etc. So he had a lot of animosity towards Dooku by the time of their final confrontation and when Obi-wan was harmed, that was finally the tipping point. It just took Dooku goading him in order to go full force.

 

The thread is very good.
Is very clear that Sidious has same intentions in both situations.

 

So the question is would Anakin kill a Sith Lord if the Sith Lord was his dad? I say no. If Luke was fighting Dooku in episode 3 he would not have killed Dooku either. Luke is more of a defender, Anakin is more of an attacker. I don't think Anakin would kill his own dad though. Luke surrendered to Vader in an attempt to turn him. Anakin was attempting to rescue a friend and father figure. They are not exactly the same situations.

 

It's more than just Luke is the son of Vader. All Jedi take an oath to avoid killing someone who is helpless. Dooku was helpless and Anakin wasn't supposed to kill him.

PALPATINE: "Good, Anakin, good. I knew you could do it. Kill him. Kill him now!"

ANAKIN: "I shouldn't . . . "

PALPATINE: "Do it!!"

ANAKIN: "... I couldn't stop myself."

PALPATINE: "You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive."

ANAKIN: "Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that, Chancellor. It's not the Jedi way."

Anakin can't bring himself to stop because he hates Dooku. The same thing happens with Mace who is going to kill Palpatine and he pretends to be weak and helpless, unable to defend himself. The Jedi way is to not kill someone in that manner. Luke is supposed to kill Vader, but he doesn't want to kill him because not only are they related, but because he was taught to not kill someone who is helpless. Take note that when we see the Jedi kill in the films, they're not killing someone who is helpless. Anakin is the only one to do so. It's even the same in the animated shows. Kanan didn't kill the Grand Inquisitor when he was unarmed and helpless.

 

No he wouldn't have but what if Luke had lived Anakin's life up to that point? It would NOT be the same noble Luke who was raised by the simple farmers Uncle Owen/Aunt Beru. He would have been a former slave, seen his mother slaughtered in front of him, have dreams of his wife and children dying and feel the years of betrayal from the jedi order and the Machiavellian manipulation of Sidious everyday around him etc... Its an interesting question.

 

it's one of the most interesting comparisons of the saga. luke and anakin experience many of the same things, and those duels are big events. The difference is luke experienced the Empire, he knew what Palpatine was. Anakin on the other hand was goaded to kill by a kindly stepfather-type. If anakin had been in Luke's place most likely he would have decided the same as Luke.

 

I think that Anakin is killing Dooku, because Dooku is the one who is behind assassination attempt of Padme.
So, Anakin kills Dooku because he fears for Padme's life.

Why is Darth Sidious telling about Dooku "he is too dangerous to be left alive"?
Because,somehow, this is influencing Anankin subconscious.

Later, in ROTJ, is very likely that Darth Sidious knew about Luke having a sister.
So, he brings Luke to kill his father, to save his sister from falling to the dark side.
However, Luke is not falling in the same trap ,to think he would save his sister, if he kills Darth Vader.

If you look, Darth Sidious has clearly talked to Darth Vader before.
When Luke tries to kill Darth Sidious, Darth Vader engages him.
Than, since Luke is not having enough hate, enough anger, Darth Vader tells Anakin about his sister and about the possibility that his sister would turn.
At that moment, Luke knew that his sister was captured.
It is clearly a trick, because is clear Leia would not turn to the dark side and no one guarantees that she is as strong with the Force, as Luke is.
So, Luke gets angered and attacks Darth Vader and cuts Darth Vader hand.

Darth Sidious does exactly same thing, he puts Luke to kill Darth Vader as he put Anakin to kill Dooku.
But Luke refuses.

The question is, if Anakin would have refused to kill Dooku, since Dooku knew so many, would't Darth Sidious just kill Anakin?
Anakin was not told by anyone about force lightning, to knew how to block it with his sword.

 

If Anakin didn't defeat Dooku, then they'd wait until he was ready. If Anakin refused to kill Dooku and Palpatine believed that he would never turn, then he would try and kill Anakin just as he did with Luke. As to the Sith Lightning, Anakin did know about it, but he was so angry on Geonosis that he rushed in without thinking.

 

Question is, if Anakin would have refused to kill Count Dooku and if Darth Sidious would have decided to do force lightning against Anakin; then would Anakin be able to hold Darth Sidious force lightning?
I do not think Anakin was close to Master Yoda or Mace Windu, as how powerful he was in battle.

 

Anakin is not as experienced as they are, but with a Lightsaber, he can hold out.

 

i noticed that anakin was pretty lacking in compassion towards enemies and only showed compassion towards those on the "right side." he references jedi rules as what should govern his actions, without feeling the compassion that would be behind such a "rule." so he may hold back from acting on the anger/hate he feels for enemies generally because his commitment to the jedi code holds him in place on some matters. dooku observed anakin wasn't using his anger/hate. palpatine just needed anakin to drop the code and let those feelings flourish.

in TCW anakin i think is pretty cold except to already established good law-abiding characters. and he feels the jedi code conflicts with efficient military operations, which in one episode he and tarkin found some camaraderie there.

what's interesting though is that luke in some ways doesn't seem all that compassionate? though maybe more than anakin? where the compassion came in was in part because he knew vader was his father. though it was also because he sensed the good in vader, and believed that was why vader couldn't kill him in ESB. if vader hadn't been his father, would he have had compassion for him?

another difference with luke is that i think that his love of his friends might be more unconditional... they don't have to remain on the side of justice as he sees it.

 

It's interesting, but one big difference is that Anakin was not aware that Palpatine was a Sith during that battle. He still had trust in Palpatine as simply the Chancellor and not the master manipulator, and he only delivered Dooku's death blow at Palpatine's urging. Luke, on the other hand, was aware of Palpatine as the main villain, and so would be more likely to ignore Palpatine's remarks, to in fact use them as a guide on how to not behave.

 

Cool thread.

There are extensive parallels between the two scenes if you care to look for it (hard to call them entirely coincidental, Lucas had all six movies running simultaneously on one screen when he edited ROTS), but that isn't really the point of this thread.

I agree with those who imply Luke was essentially just a better Jedi than his father.
Yes, Anakin's circumstances were unfortunately much worse, to deny this is to be quite ignorant of one of the main saga themes. But swap father and son in each scenario (all other things being constant) and I think you have a spared Dooku (ROTS) and a dead Vader (in ROTJ).

Anakin's greed ultimately does him in, circumstances or not. Luke only briefly gives into temptation and comes back from it, Anakin just keeps doing worse and worse as he slides.
Off-topic, I love the detail that as Anakin turns he is further and further distanced from positive influences such as Padme and the Jedi. Most notably, Obi-Wan isn't with Anakin during Shmi's death (they are on separate missions), during Dooku's death (Obi-Wan is unconscious), and during Mace's death (Obi-Wan is off-world). A voice of conscience or reason that could have pulled Anakin back before it was too late. And of course, on Padme's death Vader is truly born. Her voice reached him less and less as the trilogy progressed, entirely done intentionally I think.

Anakin is just far more quick to use whatever he can to win (ie, hate and anger), Luke takes a lot of goading to be brought to the same point.
At least... on the surface anyway. As others have said, The Emperor is openly flaunting it with Luke, probably indicating years of Sidious getting his way has gone to his head. And when Luke finally attacks, after what was probably hours of harassment from Sidious and Vader, it is because it looks like the Rebels are about to be wiped out and Han and Leia will be killed (or turned). It is simpler to understand, albeit very well done dramatically.

Anakin's situation is less obvious on the surface. It's more an underlying psychological thing that isn't outwardly stated. To Anakin at this stage Dooku is the face of all the instability in the galaxy. Dooku has just (seemingly) led an assault on the Republic core, Coruscant - Anakin's, Padme's, Obi-Wan's/the Jedi's, and Palpatine's, home. Everything Anakin cares about is located here, at least physically.
The war, the loss of life caused, the stress and danger; he thinks was solely Dooku's idea at this point. And Dooku's existence reinforces Anakin's feeling of inadequacy, maybe even impotency - it is there every day symbolised by the robot hand Anakin has because of Dooku. Anakin: "I won't fail again." Then to further fuel the fire, Dooku directly threatens the life of both his masters; Obi-Wan and Palpatine.
When Dooku finally suggests using hate and anger, it is no surprise Anakin is quick to comply.

That was a little rambling, perhaps obvious as well, but the similarities and differences between the two Skywalkers is pretty fascinating to me. It is pretty paradoxical in a way, if you swap their roles, what other circumstances change?

 

In ROTS, Palpatine strikes me as fairly confident that Anakin will win and do what he wants. That Dooku was pretty much expendable and he wanted Anakin to win.

In ROTJ, he seems just as pleased with Vader throwing his saber at Luke as he does Luke kicking Vader down the stairs. He seemed impartial. As though it was just as much of a test to Vader as it was to see if Luke could be turned.

"I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear."

"I must obey my master."

I think Palpatine sensed Vader was conflicted. If Vader could not overcome his conflict, then he'd die. If Luke would not turn, he'd die. I think the test went both ways.

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