Saga Concordism of the droids

We all know the long, convoluted history of the inception of the Star Wars saga. Many things were "made up as they went along."
That's perfectly okay with me, though it does leave us a few puzzles in the finished saga as a whole story. One particular wedge between the prequel and classic trilogy that I have never harmonized in a meaningful way is the roles of R2-D2 and C-3PO.
In the classic trilogy, their backstory is hinted at being a series of adventures. Their "last" master was Captain Antilles, implying they had others. Also, Threepio's comment to R2, "If I told you half the things I've heard about this Jabba The Hutt, you'd probably short circuit," implies to me that they even have history as individuals apart from being together. R2-D2 does not seem to know Yoda, and he sees Yoda's facade at face value, trying to reclaim Luke's lamp when the silly creature won't give it back.
When we get to the prequels, we meet R2 and 3PO for the "first" time, R2 being a droid in service to the Naboo "Air Force One," and 3PO being a pet project of the future Darth Vader on Tatooine. The former doesn't strike me as problematic, if an unlikely coincidence. The latter seems... very strange, indeed. It was certainly a surprise, and one that I don't think has a satisfactory payoff anywhere in the story.
Anyway, the prequel versions of the droids works functionally as a link between Anakin and Padme. The two trade droids as wedding gifts, and that's meaningful for them. They each play roles in the Clone Wars series, and R2 in particular seems to get along well with the other Jedi. He even accompanies Yoda to Dagobah in season 6 of The Clone Wars, and the two of them are on a first-name basis.
The droids' role in the classic trilogy doesn't have any continuity problems. The droids' role in the prequel trilogy doesn't have continuity problems. The problems come when they two are put together. They don't mix, but that's okay as it gives us the chance to have fun making this fictional world make sense by finding in-universe answers. One answer is given to us at the end of Episode III, as Bail Organa orders Threepio's memory to be erased. That takes care of a few, but not all, the issues. We are left with R2's seeming unfamiliarity with characters like Obi-Wan and (especially) Yoda in the original trilogy, and Threepio's implied other masters.
In addition to these, there's the arguably more important issue of a lack of payoff for having these characters be so intricately part of the prequel story. If one watches these films in chronological order, it's jarring for the droids to seemingly forget who they are and the latter films not even hinting at their past in any way. Or, watching them in release order, it seems jarring that the droids are present in the prequels in a 'Forrest Gump' role; they are present for all the important events and it's humorous to see them accidentally part of the backstory.
The 'Droids' cartoon has been overwritten by the continuity established in the prequels, especially the end of Episode III, and the two droids are left in a bit of a continuity mess. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the matter, and if future "story group approved" EU material (or films) may attempt to reconcile these things. What do you think? Will/should R2 tell Luke in Episode VII that he was his mother's droid?
My only conclusion can be that the droids serve a Forrest Gump role in the prequels, and this sends waves of continuity problems back to the original trilogy.

 

c3p0 has his mind wiped. r2 knows everything but he ain't talkin'.

 

What's interesting is that Lucas had mentioned in the 1980s that the droids might appear in every movie in the nine-film series - perhaps being the only characters to do so. I doubt he had a backstory for C-3PO being a Lego set for young Darth, but the idea that they'd be 'the Forrest Gump' of the series is something that's pretty old. It probably even goes back to the idea that the original film is based on The Hidden Fortress, which follows two peasants (copied over as Artoo and Threepio) as they interact with forces far beyond their ken.

 

Yeah, I think the droids being present but not understanding events on the same level we do was always part of the plan.

Another part of the plan was that the whole saga might exist inside a sort of framing story in which the droids tell the story of the Skywalkers to a Whill who acts as a sort of super-historian on a level humans haven't reached yet. So you have these droids, who are on a level a little below human, and the Whills, who operate on a higher level, both acting as our storytellers in a way. For the moment, they have oddly morphed into secret-keepers rather than storytellers. But maybe this thread will be revived and lead to a payoff someday: Our heroes have an encounter with something beyond their understanding, and like Richard Dreyfuss in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the droids are chosen to go with them and recount our story -- a sort of "ascension" for them as a reward for their hard work, and also a wink-wink, half-serious way to explain how this story reached us. On the subject of winks, it could even be the CE3K aliens for all we know -- the ETs are in the Senate, so maybe that's a Whill ship there at Devil's Tower!

There's already a little of this in ROTJ when C-3PO recounts the saga to the Ewoks. Maybe R2's memories will be later useful in a more practical way, as well -- Luke encounters an AI of some sort that doesn't want to help him; "R2, you try getting through to this thing;" the little guy plugs in, transmits a history lesson, and problem solved. Or maybe a far-future Episode X will start with the discovery of the droids, buried or lost in space and forgotten, and it kick-starts a new story with that connection to ours.

 

I found it hilarious that in ESB we see R2 and Yoda fighting over a lamp when they obviously know each other and have a history together. And I agree that it's all a matter of who's doing the storytelling. I used to think that R2 and 3P0 in the prequels didn't have to be the R2 and 3P0 of the classic trilogy. In reality they could have been totally different R2 and protocol droids and the storyteller in the far future who is relating the history of 'a long time ago' decides to put in R2 and 3P0 for familiarity and simplicity's sake. But since the continuity I know has been retconned into 'Legends' and the first official new canon story (aside from the Clone Wars) won't be out until Jan 2015 all bets are off right now as far as I'm concerned. I'm thinking we'll hear R2's side of the story about why both he and Yoda were at odds on Dagobah in ESB or why Obi-Wan chooses to ignore that he knows R2's name and history in ANH (besides that he wants to hint to R2 that it's not time for Luke to hear that his dad is the galaxy's most famous mass murderer and R2's history is intimately connected to that.)

 

That's true that they'd have to have had a "Forrest Gump" type role once you combine the ideas that the droids would feature in every film and the original film would become "Episode IV." And, of course, leaves us puzzles. It's the kind of fun Tolkien fandom has working out the backward implications The Lord Of The Rings has on The Hobbit.
One might think it's possible R2 could have had his memory erased too during the gap between Episodes III and IV, though I'd argue the implied intention of ROTS telegraphs that it's only 3PO who doesn't have the whole story by the end of the series. R2 must remember Yoda, though it's curious that this doesn't hash itself out in ESB at all.

 

I think in one of the recent novelizations of ANH (that is, after 2005) that it delves into Artoo's "mind" where he thinks it's better to withhold information that would only make the situation more complicated

 

I always looked at Artoo (and most droids) as having the mind/personality of a child. An "idiot savant" or something. If he recognizes Yoda as being the same little green dude from the PT (and understood that he was the top Jedi Master), he might think he went nuts spending decades on a swamp world (which is sorta how that scene plays out now post-PT, before the reveal). Also, parentheses.

 

R2 had better have a special subprocessor dedicated to thinking it's better to withhold information that would only make the situation more complicated. He must be doing it every minute of every day by the time he meets Luke.

 

Great thread -- and wonderful responses.

Yes, and for me, one of the ingenious aspects of the Star Wars saga, particularly when you consider that the George Lucas-steered portion, OT-PT AKA "The Tragedy Of Darth Vader", was told out of order.

Well, they did have other masters -- which the PT shows. Anakin was Threepio's original master, followed by Padme. Artoo, on the other hand, began in the service of Queen Amidala (Padme), then swapped places and became Anakin's trusty companion.

Nice catch. Remember, though, that Threepio's databanks are probably infused with extra information and various miscellanea separate to his main, conscious recall (wiped at the end of ROTS) -- because he was built from existing parts by Anakin, who worked in a junkshop, on a planet, incidentally, ruled by the Hutts.

When Threepio says he's "heard" things about Jabba, he could be mixing up consciously being told things and having them as some part of his memory structure, owed to an earlier past before he was reassembled and activated. In ROTJ, he even later remarks, "I never knew I had it in me".

Or, yes, prosaically, he could have merely heard things in intervening years, particularly if he and Artoo were sometimes separated (all the OT films show this), and Threepio interacted with various galactic citizens while Artoo was off repairing something or practicing his flight techniques.

The theory has been advanced, including in this very thread, that Artoo might have thought that Yoda had gone a bit mental, alone for all that time on a swamp planet. And maybe Artoo was damned if anyone was going to steal from him. Or maybe, like Yoda, he just really liked that lamp.

You don't see the allegorical function in Anakin building Threepio? There have been threads about this.

Broadly speaking, Threepio is Anakin's robotic analog, starting off in a shaky, incomplete fashion (Anakin even forgets, momentarily, to attach Threepio's second eye -- leaving him lacking depth perception), not realizing he is "naked", rising up in skill and trustworthiness as he leaves his former home and even gains coverings, and becoming a gleaming droid of some prestige as he arrives in the servitude of Padme, before forgetting his former self at the close of trilogy. The middle installment even includes a protracted skit in which Threepio becomes disembodied and shoots at people in battle, uttering invective like "Die, Jedi dogs!" before being righted by Artoo and looking back on everything that just happened as a "most peculiar dream".

Other levels on which the Threepio-Anakin connection works include the idea that Anakin is part-slave, part-slave-owner, that Anakin feels a sense of sublimated guilt in not being able to provide more for his mother and builds Threepio as a form of therapeutic "help", that Anakin is exceptionally talented before being ripped from his environment and losing the ability to effortlessly create and think laterally under the Jedi, that Anakin builds one-half of the audience guide for the original trilogy (the other, of course, being Artoo), and that Anakin builds something which eventually becomes a tool in his own salvation, but not before Threepio departs his "maker", thus this last level is a poignant metaphor for the seeds we scatter (itself a metaphor, but go with it) sometimes sprouting and growing in ways we may not have anticipated or realized possible.

Of all the things Anakin ever does, building Threepio is one of the most humanizing, I think. And there is a clear parallel between Anakin assembling Threepio from spare parts -- giving new life to that which was formerly dead or inert ("ani" = "animal" / "animation" / "anima" = "soul") -- and George Lucas, the "maker" of the saga, assembling something new from the raw materials of cinematic and anthropologic history.

Yes, indeed. I like the "link" you describe.

I don't think these aspects are as problematic as you're making them.

But then, "your focus determines your reality".

For example, when Luke asks Threepio if he's been in many battles, he absent-mindedly responds, "Several, I think", using the qualifer that Anakin, his maker, once used (in TPM and AOTC), and possibly hinting at some residual memory of becoming violently involved in the Battle of Genosis in AOTC. A battle from which, again, Artoo rescued him from, and when reconnected with his "true" body, Threepio seemed not to realize he'd been involved; the recollection instantly fell into a dream-state (possibly a level of Threepio's memory protected from a standard mind-wipe procedure, but one that he only has the loosest access to).

Now, you may not buy that, and that's fine. However, it's interesting, to me, that there are these little scraps dotted about the place, within the films, which can be interpreted along certain lines or others. There's a deliberate degree of open-endedness to a lot of this stuff, which we can resolve with a bigger picture, or see as stumbling blocks to all the films telling one interconnected, episodic story. That there are "episodes", however, is a clear and undeniable clue, for me -- a piece of concise annotation -- that we should see deviation and digression as an intrinsic part of the Star Wars experience.

By the way, "episode" has a really nice derivation, and comes from Greek words meaning "something added", and more precisely, "coming in besides". In other words, the naming convention essentially means, "this, but also this". Each installment tends to introduce its own set of confounding variables; and that reality (via this focus) is enshrined in the way the films are titled. I love that.

Well, in the PT, Lucas is presenting a more rigid, stratified society, so it isn't that surprising to see the droids at the bottom, not being able to do much, though Artoo still does a few things in every movie (owed, I guess, to the fact that he's small (he slips under the radar) and it's a universe where technology is liable to fail or endanger those whom Artoo is in the service of; plus for whatever symbolic reasons you wish to impute on Artoo himself). Their time will come. Their time is the OT.

I don't have strong thoughts either way. I'm absolutely fine about the way the droids are presented in the films.

And that is satisfaction enough, at the end of the day, for me.

 

I had assumed that Threepio's memory wipe in Episode III was meant to reset him such that he may as well be a different character at that point. (Such that, if they would have done the same for Artoo, all but a handful of the problems I identify would be alleviated.) However, I suppose Threepio could have a vague awareness of having had prior masters, even aware that his memory had been erased, especially given a 20 year ongoing working relationship with Artoo, whose memory remains intact.
Continuity problems aside for a moment, it will probably never feel right to me for R2 and Yoda's relationship to be what it is in ESB and different in the prequels (and TCW). In season 6 of TCW, Yoda seems quite affectionate with Artoo. Compare this to the scene in ESB where Luke faces a vision of Vader in the cave. Afterward, Artoo twitters and shakes, and Yoda gives a heavy "hmm." Also, I recall from the ESB novelization that Artoo attempts to scan the area for "the force" that Yoda speaks about, as if unfamiliar with the concept. While it's not stated explicitly, to me it seems very implicit that Artoo had no prior relationship to Yoda or substantial knowledge or exposure to the idea of "the force."
There's no shortage of continuity issues and implications between the OT and PT, but I'm enjoying everyone's thoughts on this particular issue. I enjoy watching and considering these films from the angle of a story that's being thought up as it unfolds (i.e., Leia not being Luke's sister until ROTJ), and from a fully-assimilated saga point of view.

 

Originally on Dagobah, the surprise for the viewer was when this strange, babbling creature was revealed to in fact be a wise Jedi Master. Now, if you watch the movies in order, I think you're supposed to wonder if Yoda has really gone crazy, until it's revealed to have all been a test. So Artoo is simply reacting the same way the chronologically-viewing audience does. Unintentional in retrospect, to be sure, but it works perfectly well now.

And an aspect that I think people are overlooking re: Anakin's building Threepio is this: Anakin is the focus of the Star Wars saga, the figure around which everything else revolves. Threepio is the storyteller. So it's very fitting that Anakin is the one who builds Threepio. It's a clever way of showing that there was no story before Anakin. Before the Chosen One came along, it was all just boring history; now it's mythology, and Threepio's here to tell us the fairy tale, as he does in Episode VI.

I've said it before, but it's very telling that one of two explicit P.O.V. shots in the saga belongs to Threepio in Episode I, in which he's (and we're) looking at Anakin. Threepio becomes the viewer, as well as the medium through which we're viewing the films.

(Threepio is my favorite character.)