PT Confused Jedi thinking - Qui-Gon

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by only one kenobi, Jan 12, 2013.

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  1. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
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    There are two particular examples in the PT which jar with me with regards to the Jedi and their behaviour. I can't be the only one that finds these puzzling but...they don't seem to be addressed very much, if at all.

    The first is with regards to Qui-Gon, and his admonishment of young Obi-Wan at the beginning of TPM. Obi-Wan says that he senses something. Qui-Gon expressly says that strangely, he doesn't sense anything. When Obi-Wan says that it is something "elsewhere", Qui-Gon tells him not to dwell on his anxieties, then on to something about the 'living force' and to be mindful of the future but not at the expense of the present.

    Whenever this is brought up it is often to highlight some weakness in Obi-Wan's then current understanding of the Force (which Qui-Gon exemplifies by stating such before the Council) and Qui-Gon's exemplary link with that 'living force' - generally believed to approximate to 'in the moment'.

    Now, there are a couple of things that don't quite add up for me. Firstly, Qui-Gon says he doesn't sense anything. If anything Obi-Wan is more attuned with the reality of their situation than Qui-Gon is at that moment. I would even go as far as to suggest that Qui-Gon is somewhat blind here compared to Obi-Wan, that Qui-Gon should have given his padawan a little more credit for this, rather than dismissing his attachment to the 'living force' so casually in the Council chambers.

    Then there is the puzzling incoherence of his position upon discovering Anakin. He then goes into overdrive to act upon a prophecy, and seems to put the moment completely aside to the future connotations of his discovery. How come the rest of the Council and Obi-Wan see the fear in this young boy, yet Qui-Gon dismisses such explicitly because of the prophecy (that is the only reason he ever gives for his desire to see Anakin trained as a Jedi). Is Qui-Gon guilty of ignoring his own advice here?
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  2. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
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    Good points. One could chalk it down as another instance of the hubris of the Jedi Order. If they were all perfect, they never would have fallen.

    Another startling Jedi inconsistency is "only a Sith deals in absolutes". Oh really? Is that why the Jedi believe the Sith need to be wiped out? If Jedi didn't really believe in absolutes, the Galaxy would be even worse off.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    In that same scene in TPM, Obi-Wan mentions being mindful of the future and Qui-Gon dismisses him. Qui-Gon seems a bit impulsive, with his focus so greatly on the present that he isn't "mindful of the future" at all in that he doesn't think ahead to the potential consequences of his actions.

    On his finding Anakin--he notices Anakin's affinity with the Force and his high midichlorian count and as you said, he goes into overdrive. He insists on freeing Anakin and taking him from his mother without considering any potential ramification at all--he doesn't consider the idea that the Council might not be so keen on training Anakin, he doesn't consider the idea that Anakin might be a bit to attached to his mother to simply let that go and reach the Jedi zen of non-attachment. He only sees the present, which he defines as the prophecy fulfillment right before his eyes.

    I don't know that he's ignoring his own advice; he seems pretty consistent IMO.
  4. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

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    Nov 3, 2012
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    It's an interesting character setup. We are simultaneously led to trust Qui-Gon's wisdom, while at the same time questioning it through his apprentice.
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  5. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 18, 2012
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    Well, in the end the Jedi are fallible like anyone else. They spend their lives training to sense the Force and to make the right decisions but none of them is perfect and they can make errors of judgement. Qui-Gon is notoriously strong in the Living Force and that has advantages and disadvantages - one of the latter is that his focus on the present moment can blind him to future possibilities. He obviously feels that Obi-Wan is too far the other way (and he could be right in that particular case as Obi-Wan did need to concentrate on the matter in hand). What's needed is a balance between the two, which Qui-Gon did not appear to have.

    As you point out, this does seem to be at odds with his insistence on the whole 'Chosen One' business. My assumption is that his choices relate to his dedication to the 'Will of the Force'. He obviously believes in the prophecy and his reaction to finding Anakin is to follow what the Force tells him to do ("I will do what I must, Obi-Wan"). As mentioned above, that does fit with his Living Force preference, because he acts on 'instinct' without considering any possible consequences of his actions.
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  6. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
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    This. This was a great thing about the PT. In the OT the Jedi were all morally perfect and the unquestionable good guys. However, in the PT they are more human. Even Yoda makes mistakes.

    However, the PT goes too far with this. The Jedi in some ways end up looking stupid and clueless. For instance, sending too few Jedi to certain danger. Showing impatience and going to certain defeat, even when there are alternatives (Geonosis for instance...Yoda went to get the Clones, so couldn't Mace and the rest have waited until the clones were there? Sure Obi Wan needed rescue...but rescuing 3 lives at the expense of almost 200 Jedi lives, when the Clones arrived only 15 minutes later?? And these guys are supposed to be able to see the future at will??)
  7. Joe Force Ghost

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    Dec 25, 2012
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    I think the point of that scene on Geonosis was to show the Jedi's role as peacekeepers was no longer viable. The Jedi were used to being the guardians of the galaxy single-handedly, and didn't feel they needed backup. When they were slaughtered at Geonosis, it marked their transition into generals in an army, pushing them further from the peacekeeper role and the Force in general.
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  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    Errr...the Jedi were never morally perfect in the OT. No one morally perfect would ever tell Luke that Vader, rather than being his father, actually betrayed and murdered his father. And if they were perfect, they would have realized it was possible for Anakin to return.

    In regards to Geonosis, I think the Jedi knew the clones would soon be coming and thus waited as long as they possibly could. When they saw Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padmé surrounded, though, they knew they had no choice but to intervene or the three of them would be killed on the spot. Hence why Mace Windu waited until the last possible moment to confront Dooku. Now, you're certainly right that they are risking hundreds of Jedi lives to save 3 people, but if they do nothing, then those three people will certainly die. I think the Jedi philosophy would say that they should try to help and give them a chance, even if it might cost them their lives. And, importantly, Padmé was there and she's a member of the Senate, which the Jedi serve. I can imagine that her presence would have made a significant difference.

    Plus, the Jedi themselves say that their abilities have been clouded and that the future is not fixed anyway.
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  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
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    No. Obi-Wan was being distracted by the future. Qui-Gon tried to point out that it was not wise to focus on the future . . . at the expense of the present, which is what Obi-Wan was doing. This is something that both Obi-Wan and Yoda tried to teach Luke in the OT.

    Actually, I believe he did managed to attain this balance. Despite focusing on the future, Obi-Wan was not able to sense there was something odd about the situation regarding the Trade Federation. Qui-Gon managed to do so. And he also sensed that Anakin would bring balance to the Force. He never said how.

    Also, I have to wonder when Obi-Wan and Yoda planned to tell Luke about the real identity of Vader . . . before or after the death of the Sith Lord. So, I also believe that the Jedi were not portrayed as ideal in the OT.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 17, 2013
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  10. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
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    When Obi-Wan voiced his "something elusive" that Qui-Gon commented on, they were alone and not yet "negotiating." Seems to me it was not "at the expense of the moment" at that particular moment - it may have been something to do with the upcoming negotiations for all Qui-Gon knew.

    That doesn't mean I think Qui-Gon was "wrong" because he did say "not at the expense of" rather than your focus is misplaced.

    And the Jedi weren't perfect in either the OT or PT. They couldn't be. They were human (well, sentient beings).
  11. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
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    I've never really got this. How is it morally wrong to protect a young man from knowledge that would deeply disturb him? I mean, how would that fit into that conversation? What Obi-Wan says (even taking into account that it was originally intended as the literal truth) is true as he sees it. He does not see Vader as the same person as his good friend Anakin Skywalker. I just don't see how it could be argued as morally viable to tell Luke at that time; 'oh, your father is Darth Vader'. That was not a truth, I think, that he was in a position to take at that time. Is it morally wrong, for example, for a medical practitioner to tell a patient's loved one that they 'passed away', rather than describe the agonies and physical degradation that lead to it?

    I maintain, also, that Luke has also given up on the idea of his father turning back. When he throws his lightsabre down it is about his own choices, not about Vader/Anakin. Those cries for help as he is electrocuted are more in desperation than any sort of ....faith in Anakin, as is demonstrated by the look of shock that Luke has.

    I think of the discussion between Luke and Obi-Wan - where Luke says he cannot kill his father and Obi-Wan declares that the Emperor has already won - as indicating that he understands Luke will be goaded into killing Vader, rather than doing so because he is doing what he must. That is exactly what happens, he fights with hatred and anger - his expectations of his father's actions frustrated.
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  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
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    They weren't negotiating at the time, Obi-Wan was letting his master know he sensed something.... Qui-Gon merely jumps to the conclusion that it is of the future, but that isn't what Obi-Wan says.

    You mean, after they had been gassed and their transport blown up? You say Obi-Wan was not able to sense something odd about the Trade Federation situation whereas Qui-Gon did......but it was the other way round. Obi-Wan doesn't say anything about the future, he says "something elsewhere....., elusive" and Qui-Gon says "Strange, I don't sense anything". He also says the negotiations won't take long.... In what way are you suggesting Qui-Gon sensed something that Obi-Wan didn't?


    Well, he did. He said it was by being trained as a Jedi - regardless of the "here and now" which was Anakin's situation, his attachment to his mother and his fear of loss - all things that, in the "here and now" Obi-Wan and the Council easily perceived....


    What do you mean by "ideal"? If you mean perfect then, I would re-enforce @Valairy Scot 's position that they shouldn't be expected to be. If you are questioning their moral standards... it seems a bit harsh to do so on the basis that you don't know when they were planning on telling him. Bear in mind that when he runs to rescue his friends he went against the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan - possibly because they had not had time to break it to him in a way he could be prepared for it.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Jan 17, 2013
  13. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
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    Luke is not a 5 year old child, he was nearly a grown man. Him being lied to doesn't sit right with me. Luke's father was alive, and not only did he deserve to know it, but telling him otherwise is just wrong.

    I know what how I'd want it if I were in Luke's place.

    I find this point, which is brought up often, hilarious.

    So, just because the conversation would be difficult and awkward, that makes it okay to lie? lol

    It's simple, start from the beginning and tell the whole truth. It could be condensed to the major points to avoid a ton of exposition.

    lol no, it's not. Obi-Wan doesn't think Luke's father betrayed and murdered himself. He can say whatever he wants, but he knows the truth, more importantly he knows the facts.

    lol, why not? Because it was hard? Often times, doing things the hard way is the moral way, the Jedi way, and doing things the easy way is the way of the dark side.

    Terrible comparison. If a doctor says a loved one is dead, they're dead. Not wearing a black suit of armor and going by a different name.

    When a loved one passes away from anything other than suicide, a doctor doesn't say they murdered themselves.
  14. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
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    Ha ha. Of course you do. You would want to find out that your father is a mass-murdering psycopath. No, sorry. THE biggest mass-murdering psycopath.That wouldn't throw you off balance at all. (and it should be remembered that what Obi-Wan says was literally true at the time it was filmed...bit difficult to retcon a full story into that. Do you see how this works? It is ret-conned such that it should be clear that Obi-Wan speaks the truth, not that he is a liar)


    It took GL three films, and even that was a bit rushed.



    Errmm.. yes he does. Anakin no longer exists, in his place is Vader who destroyed Anakin.


    Its not about doing things the easy way, its about Luke knowing who his father is/was. His father is not Vader, it was Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi Knight.


    I suppose it depends upon how utterly, terribly literal one is going to be as to whether one sees it as a 'terrible comparison'.
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  15. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Oh yeah, it'd throw me off big time. So? That's life, it has to be dealt with. I'd rather know sooner rather than later when I'm fighting some guy I thought was a stranger when it turns out he's actually my dad. How did Luke take that? Not well. I think he would have handled it better back on Tatooine.

    Yes, I see how it works, and to me it worked poorly and made Obi-Wan come off as a scumbag trying to get out of a lie. IMO it would have been better if Obi-Wan had just fessed up instead of continuing on with the nonsense.

    If he had just come out and said he was sorry, that he didn't think Luke was ready for it, that he didn't know how to tell him, that it hurt him to tell him, I might have let it slide, even though I still would have thought he was wrong for doing it. But no, he carried on with the lie.

    He did lie, the explanation didn't change that.

    And that's his fault that he didn't have his story straight and it ended up hurting the movies.

    LOL! They're the same person, and no amount of nonsense can change that. Anakin never died, he was never murdered.

    Vader is Luke's father, the paternity test says so. He is Anakin, but he's also Vader, because they're the same person. Vader is just an alias. We don't make up a new person for criminals who come up with aliases to avoid responsibility, because it makes no sense. At all.

    Or if the details of the comparison are at all similar, which they weren't even close.

    I've had this discussion a million times, it's still nonsense and since this is the prequel forums, I'm done with it.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 17, 2013
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Luke was none too happy with Obi-Wan when he confronted him with the lie either. On one level I understand why Obi-Wan and Yoda did what they did--I wouldn't do the same, but I know what their mindset was.

    But I still think Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" scene was one of the worst of his in the saga. He easily could have just owned what he did, apologized and explained rather than finagling his way out of it.
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Your argument is flawed because Obi-Wan never had to tell Luke that Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. He could have simply told Luke that his father is gone or lost. At the very least, it would have been a less dangerous lie than to tell Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin when he, in fact, is Luke's father. It might be the truth as Obi-Wan sees it, of course, but it is not the full truth. And Obi-Wan and Yoda are both training Luke with the intention of having him face his father and the Emperor as a Jedi. Don't you think he has a right to know the truth? Most especially when Luke is about to leave and is going to confront his father (as is the case in ESB and when there's no out-of-universe explanation for their silence)? What if Luke had successfully killed his father and then found out the truth later? Do you not think he would have been angry at Obi-Wan and Yoda for not telling him? And it might very well have made him vulnerable to Palpatine's machinations.

    Your counter example of "pass away" is nonsensical. To pass away literally means to die -- that's its definition. But Anakin turning to the Dark Side is a very different thing from him dying. It's not equatable terminology. And, yes, Obi-Wan is right that Anakin died "from a certain point of view," but Obi-Wan's is not the only point of view and Luke deserves the truth, the whole truth, before he is tasked with stopping the Sith.

    I disagree that Luke gives up hope in Anakin. Even during their battle, Luke states how he can feel the good in his father, the conflict. He cries out to his father in desperation, yes, but he also deeply believes in him. Every conversation throughout the OT confirms this. Luke wants to save his father and believes in him in spite of Obi-Wan and Yoda's lack of faith.

    And that's another point that proves that the OT Jedi weren't "morally perfect" -- they did not believe that Anakin could be turned back. When Luke tries to tell Obi-Wan of how there is still good in him, Obi-Wan only replies that he's more machine now than man, twisted and evil. And when Luke said "I can't kill my own father", the reply was "then the Emperor has already won." But they were wrong. Luke defeated the Sith precisely because he did not kill his father. He had to transcend the teachings of the Jedi of old to succeed where they had failed. Had the Jedi been perfect, this would never have been necessary.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Jan 17, 2013
  18. Ambervikings91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    good points, very hard to say

    I also wonder if maybe there are different types of disturbances, maybe obi is more tuned into that type than qui gon was, i don't think we can dumb it down and theres a good chance that qui gon and the rest of the jedi don't ACTUALLY know what they are doing that much when it comes to the force. There are a lot of things that they don't understand.
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  19. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    A bit of an aside - since this Thread is focused on Qui-Gonn - but as in some other cases, I find myself sticking up for the SW characters and bashing their writers. Which is, I grant you, kind of weird -- it almost suggests the characters have life outside of how they are written.

    Lucas may swear on a stack of Bibles that this isn't the case, but I have always had the feeling that when SW came out, he intended what Obi-Wan told Luke to be true. Darth Vader DID betray and murder Luke's father. The awkward, uncomfortable.."Er...um..well, you see...uhhhh..that WAS true..from a....er....certain point of view" moment was, to me, always an indictement of GL changing his mind re the story's direction. And poor Obi-Wan is left holding the bag.

    Shadow
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  20. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    But, you see, you are right. Vader and Anakin WERE two different men at the time of ANH's filming. Obi-Wan was truthful.
    GL turned him into a truth-sidestepper.

    And I agree re: characters and the writers seemingly separate.
  21. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    ...or after he completed his training, which he turned his back on. Vader was not Luke's father, Anakin Skywalker was. More on this later.

    This...this is just odd. In response to @Valairy Scot and @Shadow-Jedi ;this is why one ends up defending characters because of logical contortions like this. You know that Obi-Wan originally was telling the literal truth. You know that the storyline was changed between films and - therefore - you know that Obi-Wan is not intended to be a liar but in fact to be saying exactly what I am suggesting should be seen. As you I think it is poorly done but you then go on to deliberately ignore what you know to be the case and re-imagine Obi-Wan as a liar. If you didn't know what had occurred I could almost understand the misconception, but you do know, it is simply untenable to argue that reading from the perspective of knowing the facts....


    ...and...

    LOL... no amount of nonsense...LOL. It is a sci-fi fantasy film. There are fantasy elements. You understand that there are neither men nor strange wee green goblin like creatures that can lift spacecraft out of water with the power of the mind and the aid of the Force? Nonsense like that, and the idea that Vader is a different entity to Anakin Skywalker; a slave to the dark side; alike a possession. It is not like a simple crime story set in a realistic earth like setting.


    It depends on what the analogy is alluding to. Your argument seems to be that - regardless of the point of view that Obi-Wan might have, what Luke deserves is the 'truth', by which you mean the "facts" - as you tell me. So, why are the "facts" deserved by Luke, no matter how painful, but not by, for example, the loved ones of a patient who has died. Presumably it does not matter whether they are adults as to whether they 'deserve' the "facts", nor does it matter that it might throw them - they should be able to take it in their stride... that's life, after all. It is not the notion of them being dead or not that is relevant, it is the idea that someone might 'deserve' the "facts" regardless of the impact that will have upon them. I simply wonder on what basis you consider that Luke 'deserves' these particular facts.
  22. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5

    Whoa, whoa, whoa - I do NOT think Obi-Wan is a liar (although as committed to film, he did shade the truth, from a certain POV). I don't think a lack of full disclosure makes one a scumbag or a "liar" - it makes one human. To me a liar is one who consistantly and constantly lies to protect himself, not someone shading the truth to protect another (which I believe Obi-Wan was doing).

    My sole point was that due to GL changing the story, GL changed the context of Obi-Wan's truth to a certain POV which in turn caused some fans to view Obi-Wan as a scumbag and liar.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Jan 22, 2013
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  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think, though, that Lucas eventually grew Obi-Wan's character to show that he was willing to lie and deceive when he believed it to be for the greater good. In AOTC, for example, he goes along with the Kaminoans (even saying "that's why I'm here") in order to find out what is going on in terms of the army. Or in ROTS, when he goes to see Padmé and then sneaks on board her ship to find Anakin. I think the situation with Luke is somewhat similar in that it's a combination of Obi-Wan's hurt from Anakin's actions (it's easier to think of Anakin as dead than turned) and the need to train Luke and ensure he won't be tempted by the Stih.

    I don't think the lie to Luke, in the context of the story, was poorly done because you can see why he would choose to do so, even though it was wrong and deceptive. Or, at least, I do.

    Because what Obi-Wan told Luke was misleading. Telling someone a relative has passed away is not misleading -- the person still has the capacity to get all the details from you regarding the circumstances of that death, should they so choose. What Obi-Wan said, though, did not allow Luke to do that because he stated only his very narrowly defined point of view. Even if Obi-Wan believes that turning to the Dark Side is a "spiritual" death, akin to betraying and murdering what you once were, he knows that Luke has no understanding of the Force and thus will not be able to understand the nuances of Obi-Wan's perspective. It's deliberately misleading in the way that telling someone a relative had passed away is not. It's misdirecting because Luke does not have the information necessary to understand Obi-Wan's point of view.

    I don't think Obi-Wan is a bad person for choosing to do so -- I can see how deeply Anakin's betrayal impacted him. But he's not perfect and it was wrong of him to impose his point of view on Luke, particularly when he intends for Luke to eventually defeat the Sith, which may involve killing his father.
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  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    OK, what? Why does it matter what type of story it is? Anakin Skywalker took the name of Darth Vader when he turned to the Dark Side. IMO he went insane and forgot his "true self," as Luke put it, but he certainly did not become a different person simply because he took a different name.

    Many people, due to traumatic events in their lives, bury certain aspects of their personalities and allow other aspects to emerge, for better or for worse. That in no way means that they literally become different people. If Darth Vader were not Anakin Skywalker, Luke would not have been able to reach him.

    And Lucas' original intention for Vader and Anakin to be separate people is irrelevant, as we have to interpret the story we got, not the story we would have gotten if Lucas stuck to his original plan.

    I'm not going to speak for CT, but I'll answer this one for myself.

    I haven't seen any conversation here about hiding the truth from the loved ones of a dead patient, but I know that if a medical team hid the truth from me about how one of my loved ones died, I would not feel that that medical team did me a favor. Quite the opposite in fact.

    As far as Luke...I used to think that Obi-Wan did the right thing. I still understand why he made the choices he did; he felt that he needed to groom Luke a bit before telling him the truth. However, I now think he did more harm than good. Had he told Luke the truth from the beginning, Luke would have had full knowledge of who Vader really was before facing him and thus would not have gotten broad-sided. He also would have gotten an early and very personal lesson on how easy it would be for him to succumb to the Dark Side and why it is important to avoid it. And he wouldn't have had any resentment towards Obi-Wan and Yoda for hiding the truth from him. That resentment showed in conversations with both of them in ROTJ, including a conversation with Yoda on his death bed.

    Luke "deserves" these particular facts because he's a human being and nobody "deserves" to be lied to. And I think it underestimates Luke's maturity and intelligence to assume that he "needed" lies for "protection." I don't even do that with my own kids, who are a lot younger than Luke; when they ask questions, I give them as much information as they can cognitively process. Luke was physically a mature adult, he was capable of cognitively processing whatever Obi-Wan and Yoda threw at him.

    All that said, I don't think Obi-Wan was some sort of evil liar, I think he might have cared too much about Luke and therefore did not want to cause him any more pain than he had to--but that sort of thinking often backfires.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't see why it was "wrong".
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