PT Confused Jedi thinking - Qui-Gon

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by only one kenobi, Jan 12, 2013.

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  1. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I like how only one kenobi makes up things I didn't say on at least six different occasions, some of them being the opposite of what I said, others being directly contradicted by things I've said in this very thread. See if you can find them all!
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    I'm still looking for the dead patient in the hospital one...
  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    For me, it was wrong because it was misleading Luke while not giving him all of the important information. If Luke is to become a Jedi and confront the Sith (as was Obi-Wan and Yoda's goal), I think it is only right that he have all the relevant information in order to make an informed choice.

    I don't necessarily think it would have been wrong for Obi-Wan not to tell Luke that his father was Darth Vader, but I do think he misled Luke, and that's what I find objectionable.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  4. Unchosen One Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    I think it's a very valid point - and one I hadn't considered - to realize how Obi-Wan's description of Anakin's "death" might have been influenced by the deep impact of Anakin's betrayal. To finally have the chance (after 18-19 years alone, mind you) to tell someone how it felt to have your best friend and pupil, turn against you and destroy the life as a Jedi that you spent 13 years of your life building, to honor the last wish of your dying Master... Yes, I can see how you might bitterly reflect on it that the dark side within your dear friend, betrayed and murdered a man you came to love like a brother.

    Obi-Wan probably would have been perfectly happy to let Luke destroy Vader, ignorant of his true parentage. Fitting retribution that the offspring of his secret marriage would, trained by the mentor he betrayed, come back to destroy him for ruining Obi-Wan's life and dishonoring Qui-Gon's memory.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @Unchosen One

    I don't really think that Obi-Wan lied in order to get revenge on Anakin or anything of that sort, though. Obi-Wan wasn't seeking retribution but I do think that, psychologically, it was much easier for him to go on believing Anakin to be dead and Darth Vader having murdered him rather than to try to think of Anakin as Vader. At least, that's my take on it.
  6. Unchosen One Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    I agree that it was easier for him to believe that himself, and to tell himself and Luke that when he relayed the story.
    I just meant that Obi-Wan probably would have still slept okay at night, feeling that karma dealt Vader what was coming to him, rather than Obi-Wan getting revenge on him personally.
    Last edited by Unchosen One, Jan 22, 2013
  7. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    From "THE PHANTOM MENACE":

    OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
    QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
    OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's
    something...elsewhere...elusive.
    QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration
    here and now where it belongs.
    OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
    QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the
    living Force, my young Padawan.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 22, 2013
  8. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5

    Not karma - the Will of the Force! :p
  9. Unchosen One Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Karma is the Force's wife. She'll make him sleep on the porch if he gets out of line. [face_laugh]
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    The dog house, dude. The dog house.

    Or whatever the hell the equivalent is in the Star Wars universe.
  11. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
  12. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    I think that you have misunderstood me... The only bit that was in response to you and @Shadow-Jedi was "this is why one ends up defending characters because of logical contortions like this."

    I was, in fact, pointing out that Obi-Wan is clearly not intended to be a scumbag or a liar.
  13. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4

    I've looked for them mate, and can't find them. Tell me where I have made things up regarding what you have said (given that I am quoting you directly I'm puzzled as to the suggestion). Perhaps you might think to be a little more circumspect with your personal attacks. Debate the points not the individuals. If you are accusing me of being a liar (which you are) then I want that evidenced, rather than simply .....suggested
  14. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    For me this doesn't work. People might very well bury some aspects of their personality. Good people in tough situations can do bad things. But.... for twenty years? To commit atrocity after atrocity for twenty years solidly... then it was not Vader who did those things but Anakin Skywalker. There is no 'return' of Anakin because he was always there, commiting atrocities. And he earned redemption for all of his actions by .....throwing an old man down a pit? Really?

    My point really, here, is that if one understands that Obi-Wan was not intended to be a liar, then his lines following on from the changes are clearly not intended to make him a "scumbag" or a "liar". To then completely ignore the "from a certain POV" with a denial of how Obi-Wan actually felt about the matter - which it is implied by the theme of the movies is as he says - is simply contorting the story you know is being told in order to fit an agenda. Given that kind of 'reading' of the movie one could concoct whatever story one would like from it.


    "Yes, your relative was in great pain for the last four hours of his life. No amount of pain-killers could help that. He fought for breath for the last half an hour, we could see the panic in his eyes. We tried to comfort him as best we could.... etc. etc. " Now why, given that you could change nothing of the 'truth' of that, would you - or anyone - "deserve" to know it?

    But....Obi-Wan couldn't possibly have told him the full truth because.... he didn't know them at the time. I know you say that we "have to" interpret the story we got, but that simply doesn't make any sense when you are dealing with a situation like this. Obi-Wan did not have a lie written for his part, it became less than fully truthful because GL changed the story. So to try and imply some sort of 'guilt' into the character of Obi-Wan is misplaced.

    To my mind it just seems bizarre to try and unravel a character's alleged deep dishonesty upon the basis of a line that everybody knows was true, and wholly true, when it was delivered. And knowing that what GL is doing with his later lines is attempting to write it such that Obi-Wan is not a liar. One can argue that it is poorly written, but its ridiculous to argue dishonesty in the character of Obi-Wan for the straight-forward reason that we know it is not supposed to be such.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    On the redemption part: redemption only means that a person is genuinely sorry and pledges to behave differently from now on. It is not earned, it is simply done. What you are talking about is whether Anakin earned forgiveness, and there is no quantitative measure on that one, it's subjective. You may decide that you would never forgive certain people or behaviors, but if other people would forgive in the same situation, it's really none of your business. It is not "wrong" to forgive someone in the absence of a time machine in which that person can go back and undo wrongdoing. I wouldn't tell someone that he or she had to forgive such behavior either but it ultimately comes down to personal choice, not some arbitrary standard.

    As far as the relative--if I directly asked for details on how someone died, I would certainly expect to be given the truth as opposed to some sugar-coated level of bull****.

    We're just going to have to disagree on the "original intention" of Lucas because I really don't care what it was.
  16. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    You're missing the point. Take the fantasy elements out of the film and Anakin's redemption (as in how you describe it here) amounts to him throwing an old man down a pit. What danger was Luke in if he did kill Vader in anger? he would still be Luke and so...nothing's changed. It makes no sense for him to have thrown his lightsabre down. None at all, because there simply isn't a dark-side that is any danger to him.

    Also, somebody doing bad things for twenty years while still being a good person is a ludicrous proposition, especially somebody at the forefront of those things, instigating those things. Unless one takes the story of Anakin/Vader as being a loss and return of Anakin Skywalker then I think the saga becomes...untenable.


    Again you miss the point, in as much as its not simply about the original intention, its about the intention of GL after that. The argument that was made to me was that Obi-Wan was a "liar" and one of the elements of that argument was that what he said about his "certain point of view" was not how he really saw things. The implication of this is that Obi-Wan is lying here as well. Knowing that what GL had, and has, in mind for Obi-Wan's character makes this, imo, a very suspect 'interpretation'.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That does seem to align with what Lucas says about the subject on commentaries etc.
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