PT Confused Jedi Thinking - Yoda

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by only one kenobi, Jan 12, 2013.

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  1. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Anakin visits Yoda in, I presume, Yoda's own quarters in order to get some guidance from the Master on his state of mind; his dreams/premonitions. Yoda gives him the usual answers, that one would expect from a Jedi Master, about attachment etc. Fair enough, I don't expect Yoda to know the full extent of Anakin's dreams. But then Anakin says 'I won't let these dreams come true', or words to that effect, and that appears to be the end of the discussion. Doesn't Yoda sense from that that Anakin has taken NOTHING of what he has said on-board?

    So, he knows Anakin's state of mind is confused, that he is plagued by premonitions and he suffers attachment problems. That he is, essentially, unbalanced. So, how does he treat Anakin after that? He, along with the Council, preside over meetings where Anakin is humiliated (denied the position of Mastery despite being on the Council, asked - outside of formal Council proccedings - to spy on a long time friend and mentor and snubbed in terms of his advice (whether by Palpatine or not) by the Council. So, a man who has come to him showing signs of great fear and instability is made to feel less and less empowered within the structure of the Jedi. Is Yoda really that incompetent in terms of understanding people? And he never mentions his concerns to the rest of the Masters?
  2. tal0nkarrde Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 2
    There is no doubt in my mind that Yoda was relying to much on the Force to tell him how to proceed with Anakin despite realizing that the Sith were clouding his ability to "see" with the Force. One of the strangest things I realized with the prequel trilogy: The earlier Jedi preached no attachments, yet the Jedi Masters of the time were utterly and completely attached to and thus dependent upon the Force. When cut off from the Force (or a very specific part of it) thanks to the Sith, the entire order fell apart and they were undone by a group they never even perceived through their Force intuition. A sad ending indeed and a reality check for every single Master involved.
  3. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    Anakin did hear what Yoda had to say in the end of that conversation. Too bad Palpatine, like the abusive BF that he is, had to go and warp Anakins mind so more :p .

    YODA: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

    ANAKIN: I won’t let my visions come true, Master Yoda.

    YODA: Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

    ANAKIN: What must I do, Master?

    YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

    On another thought, Yoda and the Council had alot on their hands at that time also, even though their concerns about Anakin were starting to grow, ending the Clone Wars was their top priority. Weather or not Yoda was or wasn't going to bring concerns he had about Anakin up with the council were moot as soon as the Jedi Purge began.
    Last edited by King Terak, Jan 12, 2013
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  4. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Yeah, not his greatest moment. The platitudes just weren't going to work. Really, Yoda doesn't know how to teach Anakin, he's probably never had to teach anyone like him.

    Anakin humiliates himself more than anything by acting like a jackass.

    So, Anakin demonstrates why he's not qualified to be a Jedi Master (or even a Jedi Knight), and you want them to empower him? Does not compute.

    Overall though, I agree. Stupid Jedi are stupid.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The Jedi in general and Yoda in particular were not exactly the best at differentiating their training methods to accommodate differing personalities and life experiences. I don't really condemn them for that, they had never really had to do so, especially regarding life experiences--they took younglings in from infancy to ensure that they had similar life experiences. Anakin was the rare exception and they had no idea how to help him overcome his intense attachment to his mother.

    Does that mean Yoda was right from TPM and Anakin should not have been trained? I go back and forth on that one.

    In the above conversation, Anakin went to Yoda for advice on a specific situation, and Yoda was trying to help Anakin achieve an ideal rather than addressing the specific situation. Which would have been fine if Anakin had been in any state of mind to accept advice on achieving ideals, but Anakin's mind only went one place at the moment: how can I keep Padme alive? He literally did not care about anything else.

    The Council scene: I think the Council should have told Palpatine to go **** himself, that they weren't giving Anakin a seat because he was not enough of a Jedi to sit on the Council. Their outcome would have been the same. They certainly should not have asked him to spy on Palpatine. If Anakin were a typical and "good" Jedi, he would have taken the assignment for "the greater good" in spite of Palpatine being a friend, but that wasn't Anakin. In the novelization, Obi-Wan protests the assignment, telling Yoda and Mace that it would not work because Anakin was loyal to people, not ideals (a "good Jedi" would be loyal to ideals, not personalities). Yoda and Mace ignored him, and thus gave Anakin an assignment that was not going to work with his personality.

    Doesn't excuse Anakin being an ass to the Council, but that entire scenario was a big cluster**** and sadly helped bring about their downfall.
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  6. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    I don't think the 'attachment' rule applies to the Force - in fact it's the only attachment that Jedi are supposed to have.
  7. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    The problem was that Anakin was never a true Jedi, but the Council expected that him will behave in that way. Anakin never hide that he has emotions while other Jedi (in that aspect) were much more robots than organic beings. Anyway, the Council has to take a part of the blame for Anakin's fail to the dark side. Seeing what is happening, they should have never separate him from Kenobi and even became blind and allow his marriage with Padme (in the end that is not the first case when a Jedi fall in love).
  8. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    But, even if Anakin had been given permission to marry Padme, that wouldn't have prevented him from fearing her death, which is what precipitated his fall to the dark side. As Sidious pointed out, the Jedi have no way to 'save' a person from death as he promised Anakin that the dark side could. It might have made some difference but who knows if it would have been enough. As for the Jedi being 'more robots than organic beings', I have to disgree. Not all humans like to display their emotions openly or wallow in them as Anakin seems to - it's a bit unfair to suggest that such people are 'robots'.
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  9. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    It could have had some difference in the end. Anakin would have feel a little more appreciated and more special. Also, not giving him Mastery was a crime from the Jedi Council considering that during the wars, arguably only Kenobi contributed more than him. And having him to spy in Palpatine (when knowing that someone close to Palps is Sidious, knowing Anakin's relation to him and knowing that Anakin was not a stable Jedi as the rest of them) was a criminal mistake. Even worse considering that Kenobi were not there and they just denied (unfairly) Mastership to him. The Council were to blame for his fail (Anakin had his part too).

    Well, Jedi entirely denied emotions. While I agree that marrying shouldn't have been the norm, it should have been allowed. Just look at some of the greatest Jedi of all time (Nomi, Revan, Anakin, Luke, Jaina etc), all them were married and still made awesome things in favor of the Jedi.
  10. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Crime? [face_rofl] Under which Republic statute? Keep in mind, as well, that Anakin was appointed as PALPATINE'S REPRESENTATIVE. That's hardly elevation based on his own merits.

    It wasn't at all unfair. Just unwise, as it turns out.

    And contribution? I'm sorry, but Anakin demonstrated skill but not self-control. He wasn't ready to be a "master" unless you subscribe to the theory that only deeds count.

    The Council unwittingly contributed to his Fall, but were hardly "the reason."

    Deny emotions? Pffft. It was to allow emotions to pass through one; to not let emotions control one.

    Just because some EU Jedi were happily married doesn't make the case that all Jedi should marry. Many Jedi were unmarried and didn't Fall, either. The PT Council enforced a rule (that they arguably should have discarded) that came about because of a perceived past problem arising from married Jedi (can't cite specifics because I'm not that into EU).

    And putting the entire burden of adapting to Anakin onto others is unfair and unrealistic. You seem to be arguing that the entire Order should revise its (up to that point successful) rules for Anakin, give him recognition and praise far in excess of that granted to other Jedi (since, you know,"duty" and humility means you don't praise to the high heavens as Palps did), and treat him like this Messiah from the time he was 9. All hail Anakin Skywalker, Boonta Eve podracing champion, reckless and somehow successful Padawan and later Knight, exceptionally skilled and somewhat logic-challenged man.

    If you approach this just from "what Anakin needed angle" you'll get the above. Guess what - if this were real life, everything would not revolve about what Anakin Skywalker needed, what he wanted, and what he "deserved."
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  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The Jedi were not "denied emotions", that's impossible to do anyway. They were taught not to allow their emotions to control them or dictate their behavior, not a bad lesson for any of us to have in real life if truth be told--haven't most of us, at some point in our lives, made at least one really bad decision due to putting our emotions before rational thought? But, just from what we see in the movies...Yoda experienced pain, disappointment, and even fear. Obi-Wan experienced pure anguish. And we saw Mace Windu royally pissed off more than once. They weren't robots. The biggest difference between them and Anakin is that Anakin had Palpatine whispering in his ear that it was perfectly OK to use one's emotions to make decisions ("I feel your anger. It gives you focus.")

    As far as Anakin and Mastery--Mastery was not doled out due to combat skill or high midichlorian count. The Jedi had been selecting Masters and Council members for thousands of years before Palpatine orchestrated his war, and obviously they were using other criteria. I don't know why they would change that criteria for Anakin. Yoda was right, Anakin had not mastered self-control, therefore, he was not a Jedi Master. Anakin had no business on the Council or as a Master, and I think the only mistake the Council made there, was not telling Palpatine that he could take his "appointment as the Chancellor's personal representative" and shove it up his ass.

    I think it might have made a difference if Anakin could have been open about marrying Padme, simply because he would have felt that he could confide in someone other than Palpatine once his dreams started. I also think it might have made a difference if he could have rescued Shmi as soon as the dreams about her started, if she could have survived, because I don't think his desperation to save Padme would have been quite as great.

    I also agree that having Anakin spy on Palpatine was a mistake of ridiculous proportions that did not take into account Anakin's personality or his emotional stability. But the Jedi Council was desperate as well, in a different way.
  12. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    You understand in which aspect I am saying a crime. Also, if you want to be that precise, also killing or arresting a Sith Lord was not a crime under any Galactic law.
    Also, who would have been a better choice than Anakin for a member? A Jedi that cannot defeat Griveous. 10 cunning Masters that Anakin could have defeated with his hands tied in his back? Jedi Coucil were pretty much dictators who couldn't see longer than their nose. No wonder how a great Master like Qui-Gon Jin was never a member of it and how those Masters failed to Sidious. Only Kenobi and probably Fisto looked really wise.

    It was unfair to not give him mastery and it was stupid. Master in the end was only just an another title, and it wasn't that never a Master fall to the dark side (most recently Dooku and Depa Billapa). Why not giving him Mastery and tensioning even further the relations was not wise and very unfair. Kenobi and Skywalker were the heroes of the Clone Wars, not Yoda, not Windu, not other members of the High Council, not other 100 nameless Jedi Masters. And that Skywalker was treated unfairly from the Council which in fact even realized his emotional problems.

    I said that I don't think that it shouldn't be the norm, but being married shouldn't be punished by expelling from the Order. EU Jedi are canon. If GL didn't want that he could have said that no Jedi should marry and game over. Also, the Council had a rule, but a member of that Council (Ki-Adi Mundi) was married (for specific reasons). Well it's cool that Nomi and Revan saved us some thousands years ago, but let's just deny Skywalker to be marry (although a member of us is but doesn't matter). In the future Starkiller (the creator of the Alliance), Luke Skywalker, Kyle Katarrn, Jaina Solo and many other cases were married/or were in love. No-one said nothing about that. But the chosen one who will decide this was must not marry.

    No, I am not saying that the entire order should adapt to him. Just give him that Mastership, because he is one of the Top 4 most powerful Jedi of his time, because he was (together with Kenobi) the hero of the wars, because he killed the separatists leader and saved the supreme chancellor (saving Kenobi two times in process) and pretty much every time there was a difficult mission they turned to Kenobi and Skywalker. And let him marry, no harm would have come from it.
    And yes, they believed that he was the Messiah. Windu said that he has the biggest chances of surviving a duel with Sidious, while Yoda was convinced that he was the chosen one too. The Masters of the High Council called him the chosen one when he wasn't there, but they were to arrogant and unfair to him in his presence.

    Finally, the fall of Anakin was mostly at his fault. But the Jedi High Council helped him a lot to made his decision easier. When Palpatine appreciated him, they criticize him. When Palpatine said good words for him, the Masters offended him. When Palpatine offered him help, Yoda offered him meditation. When Palpatine made schema for his fail, the Masters separated him from the only Jedi who he really loved and respected and obeyed. And finally, when Palpatine offered him everything, they behaved to him like he was just another ordinary Jedi. Council and the strict Jedi dogma had a big part in his fall, no question about it.
    Last edited by TheRevanchist, Jan 14, 2013
  13. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Well....thanks for clarifying your view, and debunking the thought I had been left with that you were placing the entire burden on anyone but Anakin.

    But as to Anakin and Obi-Wan being "the heroes of the war" I'm sure some of that was due to Palp's no doubt praising them to the Council, to the Senate, making sure the Holonet took note of them...there were other just as effective Jedi fighting who didn't get the same recognition.

    And Palps good words - gosh, he was blowing a lot of smoke up Anakin's you-know-what. "You're the only Jedi who...," "Without you, Anakin," and so forth. Palps exaggerated all the (rightful) praise Anakin deserved and conflated it to some embarrassing degree that one wishes Anakin would have blushed at.
  14. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    Could they? Palpatine was the supreme commander of the Republic and the Jedi Order were under his command. The council fall into Palpatine schema like they were 12 years old naive kids.
  15. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    Who were those Jedi. Those Jedi who repeatedly were defeated by Griveous, those Jedi who were executed by about 5 clones. The Council went to Kenobi and Skywalker everytime they had a difficult mission, while the senior members (Yoda and Windu) were busy meditating. Why they were chosen for the impossible mission, to save Palpatine. Because no-one else could have done it. Why Kenobi found the Clone Army? Because he could have seen farther than the Other Jedi. And why Kenobi were chosen to defeat Griveous? Because the others couldn't. I don't think that there is a doubt that that pair of Jedi were the most effective ones.

    About the second part, Palpatine was evil and Skywalker was naive and ambitious. The Council should have protected him, not made him possible to spend all his time with Palpatine. And to be fair, I don't think what Palpatine exaggerated, he knew all the time that Skywalker soon will surpass even him.
    Last edited by TheRevanchist, Jan 14, 2013
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You still seem to think that the rank of Jedi Master is achieved by battle skill. It isn't. So it doesn't matter how great Anakin was at "difficult missions" in the Clone Wars, because for achieving Jedi Mastery, being "busy meditating" is actually more important.

    I agree that obviously it would have been better if the Council had not allowed Palpatine so much access to Anakin--but if the Jedi knew all along that Palpatine was evil, we would hardly have the same story, would we?

    As far as Palpatine having the Jedi Order under his command--that happened in the same conversation in which he appointed Anakin his personal representative. Prior to that, the Jedi served the Senate. I think they could have said "no," although it might not have been great for their PR.
  17. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    Meditating wasn't more important, especially when the dark force clouded the future. Yoda in the end realized his mistakes, and The Jedi Order should have been reformed years ago, that's the reason why they failed. Sith evolved, Jedi meditated.

    Why creating a new fighting style (which was used by 3 persons, 2 of them fall to the dark side because of it) should give you a Mastership, but being one of the most powerful Jedi of his time (at the age of 23) should not give you a Mastership?

    Palpatine forced a voting in senate which gave him control to the Jedi Council. Jedi Order could have done nothing to stop Anakin from being his represented person there. Unless they made a 'treason' in which case he would have killed them.
    Last edited by TheRevanchist, Jan 14, 2013
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Um, what? Meditating was how they knew the Dark Side clouded the future. Did you think that Yoda got a vision of that fact in the middle of a lightsaber duel with Dooku?

    And where are you getting the idea that Mace was made a Master solely due to his creation of Vaapad? Is there a source on that somewhere?

    As far as Anakin being "the most powerful Jedi of all time," the Jedi were not the ones obsessed with power. The Sith were.

    [IMG]

    "Power" was hardly a reason to grant Jedi Mastery. Mastery of oneself and the Jedi Code was a reason to grant Mastery.

    Yes, Yoda realized that the Jedi had made some mistakes. However, refusing to grant Mastery to Anakin based solely on skills in battle wasn't one of them, especially for an Order that specifically defines itself as "not soldiers."

    Anakin would have easily been eligible for promotion in the Republic Navy if that were where he served, but a Buddhist-like Order? Nope.
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  19. Joe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 6
    There is a role for power in the Jedi Order - you need to be powerful in the Force to become a Knight - but it also needs to come with restraint. If Anakin had such restraint and control over himself, he would have been Master in no time. But he did not.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Exactly . Or what was that dialogue between Yoda and Luke in ESB about Luke being able to feel the Force but not control it?
  21. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3

    Not to mention Anakin is extremely sweaty and obviously irritated and annoyed. Clearly something is bothering him.
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  22. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    In TPM he was not qualified for training, but despite repeated warnings of "GRAVE DANGER" they took him in because he may or may not fulfill some prophecy which was probably poorly understood by the Jedi and definitely poorly understood by the audience.

    Anakin never had to earn his place as a Jedi in training; but then again none of them do; they are plucked from their parents at a very young age.

    Despite this, one has to wonder how much Anakin received special treatment for being "The Chosen One"... Undoubtedly he recognized the special treatment he received and let it go to his head.

    So the Jedi and the Council in particular WERE empowering him by taking him in in the first place and by tolerating him all along.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think he received "special treatment"; I think he received special pressure.

    As far as it going to his head, I think his arrogance was actually a sign of very low self-esteem. He kept talking about how great he was because he wanted other people to constantly acknowledge his skills; he constantly needed his ego fed. That's not a sign of someone with a lot of self-confidence; quite the opposite in fact.
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  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    What would you propose as an alternative, though, janstett? Obi-Wan said that he would train Anakin himself without the approval of the Council if he must. And Yoda himself felt Qui-Gon's defiance in Obi-Wan regarding this matter. I think it's safe to say that Anakin would have been trained, one way or another, and so the Council probably felt it was a safer route to formally make Anakin a Jedi and thus offer Obi-Wan support while allowing them to keep an eye on Anakin. Plus, with the return of the Sith, the sudden emergence of a possible Chosen One does seem coincidental and the Jedi don't believe in luck or in things happening by accident.

    I think it's unlikely that Anakin received special treatment (at least, among the Jedi -- Palpatine's a completely different story). The only thing I can think of where they treated him "better" is when they accepted him although he was too old. Even then, though, I would imagine that had more to do with Qui-Gon and the prophecy than Anakin himself. If anything, I think it probably would have helped if they made more exceptions for him -- such as letting him see his mother -- especially due to his circumstances.

    Rather than his treatment by the Jedi making him arrogant, I would say it's a combination of his strength in the Force and Palpatine's praise. There's a very blatant instance of this in the beginning of AOTC, when Anakin jumps from the speeder and is clearly trying to prove to something to Obi-Wan. It's also implied he does this rather often since Obi-Wan comments that he hates it when Anakin does things like that. Then, of course, there's Anakin's comments about how he's ahead of Obi-Wan in a lot of ways and how he rivals Master Yoda as a swordsman (which ties in nicely with Palpatine saying how he will one day exceed Yoda). Obi-Wan pretty much lays this out when he says, "His abilities have made him, well, arrogant."
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I think the two of you are right! How's that for straddling the fence.

    I would venture a guess that the Jedi had never dealt with a 9 year old insecure child before to recognize his"arrogance" as "insecurity" and in fact I would argue (personal opinion) that this developed after some time in the Temple - a combination of missing his mother, trying to fit in, pressure to live up to the "Chosen One," puberty, Palpatine's sweet talking and subtle digs at the Order sinking in and taking root and of course his need for "control" based on his early slavery.

    If the Jedi were not in a position to recognize insecurity they would not know how to deal with it.

    To tell the truth, until posters like Anakinfan pointed out the insecurity aspect, *I* saw only a young man, arrogant in his abilities and a competitive drive that demanded RECOGNIZE ME.

    And not being a teacher, not being a parent, I wonder how one would deal with a Jedi youngster's (I say it this way because of a Jedi's power relative to other non-Force users) insecurity: does one validate and validate and validate until it sinks in? Should his weaknesses be all but overlooked while his strengths praised until such time as he can accept feedback?
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