PT Confused Jedi Thinking - Yoda

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by only one kenobi, Jan 12, 2013.

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  1. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    I think it also had something to do with proving he was more than just some former slave from Tatooine. He goes from that, to the Jedi whom are cautious about his abilites, so he could feel exiled, while showing off to prove he is worth something.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Absolutely not. That would not be doing him or anyone else any favors.

    This is just what I personally would do and there is obviously a wide range of opinion as far as how to handle and teach kids: I would treat him the way I would treat any other kid. I think a balance of praise and correction is important. No kid does everything wrong, and there is also not a kid anywhere who does nothing wrong. I think there can be a tendency to only point out wrongdoing when dealing with kids, and I also think there is a mindset among some that this tendency is acceptable, that any amount of praise is "feeding the ego" and "letting it go to the child's head." I don't agree with that at all.

    But correction is teaching, and if the Jedi never corrected Anakin, they would not be teaching him anything other than the (incorrect) idea that he never did anything to warrant criticism.

    I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, and it's possible that when my kids are grown, they'll whine to potential lovers that I'm overly critical, I never listen, and I don't understand.

    But I think the Jedi's mistake, starting with Qui-Gon, is letting Anakin know that he was the "Chosen One" and therefore there was a certain greater level of pressure on him to be an outstanding Jedi--a pressure that he felt that he could never meet.
  3. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    Anakin had his flaws, no question there, but In the end, he did complete his most important personal goal. He saved someone he cared about from dying.
  4. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @anakinfansince1983

    I appreciate what you're saying (and love your line about your kids) but who's to say Anakin did NOT receive praise as well as criticism?

    My view of the Jedi teaching, right or wrong, unsupported by movie evidence (no, AoTC lines not withstanding) is that a teacher attempts to help a student correct/overcome his flaws (your stance is wide leaving yourself open to attack) and mild rather than effusive praise (that was well done).

    I always got the opinion that Anakin did not want/accept anything he felt was criticism because even the mildest of corrections was a harsh putdown TO HIM and that any praise he received was not effusive enough FOR HIM, and so he was not and could not be satisfied with the amount of praise received - and how to overcome this without accelerating the praise and holding off correction ... I don't know.

    And I think the Jedi didn't know. It wasn't that they didn't care, only that they did not understand and what you do not understand you cannot take steps to rectify.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think Anakin did receive some praise from Obi-Wan, and I think a big part of the problem was that Palpatine simultaneously blew sunshine up his ass while feeding him crap about how the Jedi didn't do enough for him. On these boards I've seen Palpatine compared to the benevolent parent post-divorce, and I think that's accurate. It's really too bad that Anakin was gullible enough to buy everything Palpatine fed him.

    As far as Anakin taking personal offense at the slightest criticism, my question would be, how did he get to that point? Nobody is born reacting that way, and genuinely self-confident people can take correction or criticism and use it to reflect on their behavior, without taking it as a slight on their character. That to me also indicates that Anakin didn't think much of himself, in spite of his constant boasting about how awesome he was.

    I don't think the Jedi knew how to handle Anakin because as I've mentioned before, they were accustomed to only dealing with students with one type of background, a type they had manufactured. And a person's background can determine at least somewhat how he or she will react to/handle challenging situations.
  6. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    That was me (maybe others as well, but definitely me) that brought up the non-custodial parent showering with goodies and sly digs at the custodial parent routine of Palps. I think that and Anakin's knowledge of the prophecy were the two things most responsible for his self-image.

    Secondary, but corollary, the burden of an uncertain prophecy coupled with Palps oh-so-certain "sureness" of Anakin's superior abilities left him in a quandary as to how to do what he was supposed to do and how to live up to those expectations.

    Add to all that, he wasn't an "ordinary" Jedi. Some exceptions were made for him (entrance) and perhaps others: he probably could not understand why sometimes this and sometimes that (and the more exceptions on his behalf the likelier some of his peers wouldn't understand why exceptions were made for him).

    IMHO the "best" solution would be that he was identified earlier or trained away from the Order without all that baggage - and most definitely without Palps subtle undermining.
  7. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    No offense guys, but I do feel the Jedi take a lot of lumps where the problem is the writers and/or Lucas.

    There are many many many philosophies that, in one way or another, teach versions of "acceptance". Not "acceptance" as in "passively let bad things happen", but "acceptance" as in "understand the nature of things"... understanding that few things are permanent (if any) in life. People die, things change, life isn't always fair, material possessions come and go, worrying overmuch about fame, fortune, and public acclaim is a bad path, etc. There is no way to do this outlook justice in the middle of a two-three hour movie that was never meant to be a lecture on philosophy. There simply isn't. And so we get scenes, a couple minutes in length, where folks are offered advice that looks glib and uncaring and simplistic.

    Now, if you want to believe that is all there is to the Jedi order- these (no offense) fortune cookie platitudes, incredibly insensitive comments about not worrying about loved ones dying, etc... well, I am not going to be able to dissuade you here. I WOULD suggest that the movies make it clear that the Jedi did an enormous amount of good for LONG periods of time, and if all they had going for them were smug platitudes at this level... I rather doubt that would have been the case.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that the Star Wars movies simply don't have the time, nor inclination, to offer a detailed primer on Stoicism, or any other type of philosophy. SO when Anakin goes and sees Yoda, we get at best a Readers Digest version of the Jedi philosophy. And we need to remember that this isn't a conversation with no background or context; one has to know that Anakin has had YEARS of intenstive tutoring and study under his belt at this time (which makes his Dark Side falls all the more damning - when he slaughters the Sand People, for example, it isn't akin to you or me "losing our heads"!).

    Shadow
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    My take is that much of this philosophy of acceptance comes with maturity, which Anakin did not have. And I do think that if Lucas intended for us to adopt a mindset that is radically different from the average world view when judging both Yoda's words and Anakin's behavior, he needed to spend more time on that mindset. I personally can't go from "Well I couldn't possibly be that Zen about negative events in life but Anakin was supposed to, so I will judge him by what he's allegedly supposed to do, not what I might consider a normal reaction from any human with his background and personality."

    Which is why I don't judge his slaughter of the Tuskens any more harshly than I would judge, say, Han Solo for doing the same thing. (Using Han as an example because in Tatooine Ghost, he says he might have done the same thing in Anakin's situation.).

    And before anyone asks what the point is of Anakin being a Jedi if he's going to be held to the same standard as a non-Jedi; I'm not sure the adoption of a Zen viewpoint of life is something that can be taught. And I think it's harder for people with certain backgrounds and personalities to reach it. Anakin did know what he needed to do, and I think he would have been far more volatile if he had never been taught the Jedi way. But IMO it's not realistic to expect an immature and highly emotional 23-year-old to go as easily down the path of "acceptance" as, say, a rational-minded and mature 38-year-old (or even another 23-year-old who is rational-minded and mature).
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  9. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @Shadow-Jedi: ^:)^=D=

    @anakinfansince1983: Your
    is perfectly valid as well, although many of us (no, I won't use the "all of us" or "most of us" collective) did get that from the movies.
    Eryndil likes this.
  10. Darth Ruian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2013
    With all due respect the Jedi also wanted power, or else they wouldn't have cared so much about having full control over the galaxy (with help of the Galactic Republic) when the Confederacy of Independent Systems took over most of the Outer Rim.
  11. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    To be honest, it seemed to me that Yoda has always seemed very reluctant to deal with Anakin on a more personal level. I guess his reluctance to allow Anakin within the Jedi ranks never really left him. Some would view this as Yoda's ability to see Anakin as a future danger. But if he was able to see Anakin as a possible threat, why did he fail to see Dooku as one?




    I suspect they were also too attached to the Order itself.




    I have a problem with Matt Stover's novelization. In the movie, Obi-Wan told Anakin that he was against the idea of his former padawan spying on Palpatine. But in another scene, Obi-Wan was trying to get both Yoda and Mace to accept the idea of Anakin spying on Palpatine. So . . . which is correct? The movie's screenplay or Stover's novel?
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 24, 2013
  12. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Movies always trump novels - movies are the highest canon.
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  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    What scene? The only scene I remember is what where Obi-Wan tells Yoda & Mace, after they've decided, that it's a big mistake, a betrayal of Anakin's trust.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Anakin never commented on him being the Chosen One . . . at least not in the movies. Instead, he seemed more focused on Palpatine's comments about his strength with the Force and his potential to be the greatest Jedi ever. The only time I ever recall Anakin hearing the "Chosen One" label was when he heard Qui-Gon mentioned it to the Jedi Council during their debate in TPM and when Obi-Wan yelling at him that he was supposed to be the Chosen One during their fight in ROTS. Anakin NEVER brought up the subject in the last act of TPM. He certainly didn't before they departed for Naboo. Instead, he asked questions about midichlorians. And in ROTS, he was too busy being angry at Obi-Wan and concentrating on killing the latter to even think about the Chosen One comment.

    So, when people comment about the consequences of Anakin knowing about the Chosen One fate, I cannot help but wonder why they would bother. Unless, Anakin brought up the subject in a novel or in "The Clone Wars" series.




    From "REVENGE OF THE SITH":

    OBI-WAN: Anakin, look, I am on your side. I didn't want to see you put in this situation.
    ANAKIN: What situation?
    OBI-WAN: (takes a deep breath) The Council wants you to report on all of the
    Chancellor's dealings. They want to know what he's up to.
    ANAKIN: They want me to spy on the Chancellor? That's treason!
    OBI-WAN: We are at war, Anakin. The Jedi Council is sworn to uphold the principles of
    the Republic, even if the Chancellor does not.
    ANAKIN: Why didn't the Council give me this assignment when we were in session?
    OBI-WAN: This assignment is not to be on record. The Council asked me to approach
    you on this personally.
    ANAKIN: The Chancellor is not a bad man, Obi-Wan. He befriended me. He's watched
    out for me ever since I arrived here.
    OBI-WAN: That is why you must help us, Anakin. Our allegiance is to the Senate, not to
    its leader who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired.
    ANAKIN: Master, the Senate demanded that he stay longer.
    OBI-WAN: Yes, but use your feelings, Anakin. Something is out of place.
    ANAKIN: You're asking me to do something against the Jedi Code. Against the
    Republic. Against a mentor . . . and a friend. That's what's out of place here. Why are you asking this of me?
    OBI-WAN: The Council is asking you.


    Later, Obi-Wan has the following conversation with Yoda and Mace:

    YODA, MACE, and OBI-WAN ride in the GUNSHIP as it heads for the Clone landing
    platform. Mace and Obi-Wan are sitting.
    OBI-WAN : Anakin did not take to his assignment with much enthusiasm.
    YODA: Too much under the sway of the Chancellor, he is. Much anger there is in him.
    Too much pride in his powers.
    MACE: It's very dangerous, putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I
    don't trust him.
    OBI-WAN: He'll be all right. I trust him with my life.
    MACE:I wish I did.
    OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy
    the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
    MACE: So the prophecy says.
    YODA: A prophecy . . . that misread could have been.
    OBI-WAN: He will not let me down. He never has.
    YODA: I hope right you are. And now destroy the Droid armies on Kashyyyk, I will.
    May the Force be with you.


    When exactly did Obi-Wan tell Yoda and Mace that Anakin spying on Palpatine was a big mistake and a betrayal of his trust?
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 27, 2013
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the RoTS novelisation.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I should have known that Matt Stover would contradict what was shown in the movie. I wonder if he did it to continue his idealization of Obi-Wan, which reeked in the novel.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 28, 2013
  18. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    You've uncovered it! The great conspiracy to saint Obi-Wan, backed by GL himself who was said to have line-edited the novel.

    Oh, thank you thank you thank you for opening everyone's eyes to the great truth.

    /:rolleyes:
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  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I'm not really surprised and what in the hell was Lucas thinking? I'd rather stick with the movie, thank you.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jan 28, 2013
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    For all we know, Stover's novel was based on an early script- and the movie changes were made after the novel was finalized for publication.

    It wouldn't be the first time- the A New Hope novel was similar.
  21. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Stover did include scenes in the book that had been in the original script but were removed from the film (for reasons of time, flow, dramatic effect etc). Obviously GL approved their inclusion in the novelisation so he must have been happy with the way they appeared. And, given that he created Star Wars, that's good enough for me :)
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Actually, having seen the earlier script, I'm fairly sure that's true.

    As far as the novelization, there are many aspects of it that I thought were superior to the movie, the conversation that Obi-Wan had with Mace and Yoda being one of them, another being the real display of Anakin's turmoil over his nightmares about Padme (which led him to stop sleeping altogether because he was so afraid he'd have another one) and his general confusion about who his true friends were. Then there were some aspects I didn't like--the Mustafar scenes, and the overall portrayal of Anakin and Padme's relationship.
  23. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    I think folks let Anakin off a little lightly at times. I seem to recall that Palpatine tells Anakin he wants him to be Palpatine's "eyes and ears on the Jedi Council", didn't he? I don't recall Anakin objecting to that - is it just because Palps didn't use the literal word "spy"? But when the Jedi want Anakin to keep an eye on the Chancellor (amidst growing suspicions that the Sith may be making a comeback and infiltrating the government) ...NOW Anakin has all sorts of moral qualms?

    Anakin does have a way of rationalizing when he is getting what he wants, IMHO.

    PS - I really enjoyed the ROTS novelization. It has been a while since I read it, so I cant give chapter and verse examples, but thought it was a great companion piece. I do recall, right off the top, finding the Obi-wan/Anakin/Dooku fight much more interesting and exciting in the book, than the movie fight scene. But I digress!
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  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think he had "moral qualms." That was a smokescreen. The main thing Anakin was pissed off about, was not being granted the rank of "master" when he was put on the Council, not spying on Palpatine, as much as he said about the latter. I do like the novelization's version of this scene, because it expands on the idea that Anakin wanted mastery so that he could access the Jedi Archives and search for the secrets to stopping death.

    But I do think the Jedi Council needed to realize that this was Anakin they were dealing with, not your ideal or even your typical Jedi, and how they framed the request was important. I'm not sure there was a good solution at that point--they shouldn't grant Anakin mastery when he hadn't earned it, and he hadn't. If they needed someone to spy on the Chancellor, he was the most obvious choice. Maybe they could have presented the idea to Anakin that they believed that Darth Sidious was someone in the Chancellor's cabinet and they were asking Anakin to spy on him for his own protection? To see if he is being influenced by an outside source? Labyrinth of Evil has Mace Windu believing that Sate Pestage was Sidious.
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the EU Mastery is sometimes a case of "the Jedi granting themselves the title- and the others not disputing it"- C'baoth springs to mind. Still, that's the exception rather than the rule.

    "Anakin's the most powerful Jedi alive- but he's not stable- that's why he has to be kept from it" was said in the novel.

    This is also how Obi-Wan frames the request in the novel.
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