ST Confusing State of Galactic Affairs

GERMANY GERMANY GERMANY GERMANY 1930s. GAH. They saw, they ignored it. The only wildcard is Starkiller, which was obviously hidden. In a parallel universe, imagine Germany got the A-bomb.

 

True...which would explain why, when Hux was screaming at his troops about eliminating the Republic it looked like the backdrop of the Third Reich...but Germany would never have lasted as long as it did if it didn't have allies. Japan kept a lot of countries busy in the Pacific theater. Still, I don't think the other countries were actually nearly as oblivious to the threat Germany posed as they seemed. The Republic not only seems oblivious, it doesn't even seem to have a way to counter the threat posed by the First Order other than Leia's Resistance, which is a frightening state of affairs.

 

Well, the reason Germany was so successful in the early stages of the war was that even the countries that were aware of the threat did next to nothing to counter it. The US was training armored units with bicycles. France built the Maginot Line and not much else. After the nightmare of WWI, they couldn't sell building up a defense to the taxpayers. They all waited for another country to step up and do something.

Seems the Republic could have the same problem. All agreeing that something should be done, but none willing to pay for it.

 

Finn (to Poe): Do you fly for the Republic?
Poe: The Republic? No. I fly for the Resistance because we actually get stuff done!

would have been a great little addition at some point.

 

I'm sorry but I can't take your posts seriously when you say things like TFA lacks "structure" - it might be the most loyal translation of the heroes journey that's ever been put to film and you say the film lacks structure. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and it's obvious you have a bias against this film when you say things like that.

 

It's now known that Lucas's ideas consisted of nothing more than a short synopsis

 

Some quotes from the databank on the official site:

"After the Battle of Endor, the New Republic reached an uneasy peace with the remnants of the Galactic Empire. Believing the Empire was no longer a threat, the New Republic reduced its military capabilities, despite Leia’s warning that the Imperial remnants could not be trusted. When her concerns were dismissed as paranoid warmongering, Leia formed the Resistance, a secret military force that keeps watch on the restive First Order."

"A small, secretive private military force, the Resistance was founded by rebel hero Leia Organa to monitor the actions of the First Order. Most New Republic power brokers tolerate the Resistance while regarding Organa and her fighters as dead-enders with an unfortunate fixation on the past. Organa’s cash-strapped movement relies on credits, ships and equipment quietly funneled to it from the few senators who share her concerns."

"The Rebel Alliance became the New Republic after its victory over the Empire at the Battle of Endor. Eager to win over the war-weary citizens of the galaxy, the New Republic revived the Senate, signed a peace treaty – the Galactic Concordance – with the Empire’s remnants, and drastically reduced its military capabilities. That policy aroused the ire of rebel hero Leia Organa, who warned that elements of the Empire were still seeking power. Sidelined from the political process, Organa founded the Resistance to oppose the Empire’s successor state, the mysterious First Order."

So the picture painted here as canon is that Leia does not get along with the Senate. They see her as a warmonger and keep her out of politics. Only a few senators actually support her and give her credits and ships. And we are told that the New Republic reduced its military significantly.

The issue is that virtually this whole situation is not obvious in the film, and the way the film presents information would make you think almost the exact opposite of what is canon.

The opening crawl says that General Leia Organa leads the Resistance against the First Order with the support of the Republic...

Hux asserts that the Republic is lying to the galaxy and supports the Resistance, when that is not the picture being painted here. Hux also says that without the Republic, the Resistance would fall, when the Republic - outside of a few senators - wasn't really supporting Leia.

My understanding was that there was a cut scene in which Leia wants someone to speak to the Senate for her to report on the actions of the First Order and ask for aid. This may be why C-3PO says that without the Republic fleet, the Resistance is doomed. He may be referencing the cut scene in which aid is requested. My understanding is that this exchange is still in the novelization, and that it really shows that Leia does not have good relations with the Senate.

But none of this is in the film. To sit and watch episodes 1-7, without any behind the scenes info, knowledge of cut scenes, reference books, etc. we would think that Leia has a perfectly amicable relationship with the Senate, since the opening crawl says that they are backing her resistance. We would also think that they are heavily supporting her, as Hux says that without the Republic, the Resistance is no threat. And we would have no reason to think that there's any kind of treaty between the First Order and Republic, because nothing is ever stated about this.

Does the story make sense if you view it with the understanding that the Republic fully supports Leia and was destroyed before it could come to her aid? Sure. But the curious thing is that this interpretation seems to contradict what was intended, in that we get no sense that there is a treaty (beyond one vague mention by Hux in his speech about the New Republic lying to the Galaxy about helping the Resistance). And even what Hux says, seems to be false as the Senate looks down on Leia and only a few senators support her in secret.

And while I'm not certain, I'm guessing that the political scene was cut because it would just make things confusing. It would be confusing if the crawl says the Republic supports Leia in her fight against the First Order, and then we have a scene later on showing Leia and the Senate on bad terms with Leia having to ask for help, and then having Hux say that the Republic supports the Resistance. There would be a little bit of disconnect, while with the exclusion of the political scene, what Hux says corroborates what the crawl states. But again, this misdirects from what is held as canon. But I suppose unless you read the comics/books, then you are unaffected by this. Most movie goers can go see the movie, arrive at a reasonable understanding of the film, even though the film doesn't convey the intended state of the galaxy well,.But if you just see TFA and move on from Star Wars until seeing Episode VIII, then you'll probably be none the wiser that you've arrived at a reasonable, yet false impression of the state of the galaxy (and the story probably would work just fine either way, in the end). .

Really, I think they should have just changed the crawl to say that the Resistance was challenging the First Order without consent from the Republic and then left the political scene in the film. Then Hux could destroy Hosnian Prime while those political talks for aid are being conducted, ruining Leia's attempts to call for reinforcements, and giving greater context to C-3PO's misgivings about the Resistance's chances without the Republic fleet. It also would have explained why C-3PO tries to refer to Leia as princess at one point, but then apologizes and addresses her as General, as it would suggest that her title had been stripped from her, as she was kept out of politics.

The movie does portray things in a way that makes sense in their own right, but it doesn't seem to really convey the relationships between the different factions in the way that was intended as canon.

 

Now that much of the New Republic's fleet was destroyed during that devastating attack on the Hosnian Prime system, how will the Resistance be able to stand up to the next wave of attacks by the First Order?

With the destruction of Starkiller Base, the First Order is sure to retaliate. But since much of the Resistance's fleet was also wiped out in that attack on SB, they will be severely short-handed in the event of an FO counter-attack. Which means the Resistance will have to put aside any differences it has, with whatever remains of the New Republic, and work together to repel the FO, come Episode 8.

Speaking of the New Republic, I doubt the entire fleet is gone as there should be some extra vessels and troops based outside of the Hosnian Prime area. It will be utterly foolish of the leadership to "put all eggs in one basket" and lose everything in one fell swoop!


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From what I understand, the New Republic was mirroring itself after the Old Republic before The Clone Wars. In AOTC, we learn that there isn't a standing army, there is only a peacekeeping force of Jedi. And in TPM we see that when the Trade Federation attacks Naboo, Naboo is stuck defending itself with local volunteer security forces (and ultimately the gungan army). Chancellor Valorum also tries to send Jedi in secret. But again, there isn't a centralized Republic army, not until the Senate votes for approval of the clone army.

Following the peace treaty with the Imperial Remnant, my understanding is that the military pretty much became decentralized again to mirror the pre-clone army Republi. That the New Republic does keep a relatively small, centrally controlled peace keeping force to fill the void vacated by the Jedi, but that local security forces have become largely responsible for their own defense. So, what we saw was likely the destruction of the centrally controlled peace keeping fleet. Other planets out there have their own security forces and might join the Resistance, but I don't think there are any more centrally controlled Republic ships (plus the Senate got destroyed and isn't around to really issue any orders to any ships that did survive, provided any did).

Depending on how well armed the First Order is, it's uncertain how much help the peace keeping force would have been anyway. Certainly it's better than nothing, but I don't think there is a centralized army anywhere near the scale of the clone army from the prequel era, meanwhile the First Order has build a centralized army.

 

Approach large numbers of people in the street? Where did I say I approached large numbers of people in the street? I said I talked to people, and you take that as I approached large numbers of people in the street? You make the same logical mishaps the movie makes.

Yeah, no one "chimed" in, because your statement about not knowing who the good and bad guys represent is stunningly ignorant. I don't even need to respond.

30 years after the supposed fall of the Empire, we needed a solid explanation of whose in power, who's trying to take power, and why. The movie explains...nothing. Which makes it less interesting and less dramatic, which is why the movie is average. Unless you're an 8 year old looking to be mindlessly entertained.

 

prove it

 

Don't confuse what you "need" from what others need. Insulting the vast majority of this forum doesn't aid your argument either.

 

After reading the first Post, it honestly would have made more sense for the Resistance and First Order's funding and equipment to be reversed.

It would have been cool to see the FO using old class II Imperial Star Destroyers and the resistance rolling around in cloaked Super Mon Calamari Star Cruisers!

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There was just an article where Kathleen Kennedy was quoted saying exactly that - don't have the link handy but I'm sure the google can find it

 

Kasdan said similar. They had some loose notes for a bunch of films, some of them spinoffs.

 

It does lack structure hence why there's very little drama and sense of peril. That it's not structured very well is one of the reasons many of the plot points are incoherent. However, what is clever about it is that very few of the plot points actually matter. It all kind of washes over. We've already established that you can't really comprehend these things, and explaining these simple things to you feels a bit like explaining a tax self assessment to my dog.

 

Actually I haven't read novelization or anything, most of these are the impression I got from the movie itself during the first viewing in fact.

Movie left politics out of it like ANH did- it seems probable it was discussed since Resistance was formed- but ANH never show us how Palpatine dissolved the senate either.

Hux mentions in his speech how the weak New Republic lies to the people and secretly supports treachery which is the Resistance. Or something like that. That generally means that Resistance is "breaking the truce" so they are not at war before they destroy Hosnian system.

When they first arrive in the Resistance base they mention that "Hosnian system" was destroyed by the First Order- so planet we saw blowing up was there. It is true that movie doesn't explicitly mention that planet is named Hosnian Prime (That much information I got is not from the movie- I thought planet was Coruscant until they mentioned Hosnian system- which led me to believe it was Hosnia and not Coruscant- later confirmed to be "Hosnia Prime" )

 

In ANH,the scene discussing the dissolving of the Senate gives us context to show the Empire is now fully in power of the galaxy. Which adds to the heart of the conflict of the movie, a powerful Empire against people who are rebelling against the empire.

In TFA, the First Order is from the "ashes of the Empire." We get no clue or explanation as to their position in the galaxy. Do they control part of the galaxy? Are they a rogue organization? Do they have any influence on any planet systems? The movie is about a conflict between the Republic/Resistance and the First Order, but why are they fighting? The movie shows they're just the "bad guys" who decide to blow up planets for power, and the Republic are the assumed "good guys" out to stop them. Basic, boring and uninteresting.

 

Again - not sure what the argument here is. Is there anyone who honestly can't admit that things were a bit vague and 1-2 more lines of exposition wouldn't have been helpful? Not a huge flaw, but we certainly could have used just a little bit more

 

Have we blown up North Korea just because they exist?

 

So I was thinking about this... and honestly the OT probably does the best job explaining the Galactic situation. For all the political dialogue in the PT a lot things are never given explanations and other things are not given rational explanations.

As an example - Why were the separatists fighting the Republic? (this is never explained other than Sidious told them to)... I mean that's the whole point of AOTC/ROTS and it's never explained

Who the hell was Sifo-Dyas? Why did he order a giant army? How in the world did he get the money to pay for it? etc, etc


Seriously, SW has never explained the galactic political backdrop that well.

 

Why were the separatists fighting the Republic? From watching the movies, you have it right...Sidious/Dooku were manipulating the Separatists to go to war with the Republic, and Sidious/Dooku were using the war to obtain more power. They were aligned with Sidious/Dooku for some reason, whatever the reason wasn't exactly relevant to the plot of how a Sith Lord is trying to obtain the ultimate power.

Its certainly more nuanced than "we don't like the New Republic, let's blow up planets."

 

I think it's evident that many of the Separatist worlds want to withdraw from the Republic to create a better, less corrupt, and more manageable form of government.

 

Yeah, that's not any more nuanced and is arguably less nuanced. I actually get why there is tension between an imperial remnant and the new republic; it's fairly obvious if you've seen the OT... .and the SKB is basically like a much more impactful Pearl Harbor.

Honestly none of the SW movies do a great job explaining the motivations behind the wars depicted. I do think the OT does the best job... and it helps that it doesn't try to overcomplicate things.

I mean "sidious/dooku told us to" is barely better than saying the separatists are breaking away because "reasons"

 

They do a pretty poor job of explaining that in the movies.... (not sure about other expanded universe material)