Phx Congress shall make no law ...abridging the freedom of speech

Discussion in 'SouthWest Region Discussion' started by skywalkersound, May 29, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: DieWompRatDie
  1. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Just in case anyone needs a reminder;

    Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    OK, if you go to PFF.com you'll notice that the site is down because Subjugator got banned.- Yea, banned. For expressing his thoughts on an issue that he felt needed to be dealt with. I do not know any specifics, but to ban someone for this is unjust. Subjugator has contributed greatly to PFF with the work on the website, and this is how he gets rewarded?- This is wrong.

    I've been here since the early beginning, I'm not an officer, but I still have mutual respect for all of the members, and singling one out because of his opinion on a subject is wrong, I don't care if it doesn?t follow TFN TOS. -And to clarify, the only time someone can be silenced is when their words infringe on someone?s well being, or threatens their life. Talking about dues or whatever is far from that.

    Again, I don't fully know what went on, but we are all SW fans here, with good intentions, no one should get flamed for thier ideas or thoughts, and I know that it's very frustrating for the officers and City Rep people, but hang in there, the 8th is on the horizon.


    I am greatly disappointed that this happened, and perhaps we can discuss this here.- If not, I'll kindly lock this thread.

    -mike

    BTW: Kevin, you're still a member. ;) :)


    EDIT: Mark-up codes
  2. VoidDancer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 5
    Thank you for the reminder Skywalkersound, I hate to tell you that it has no bearing here. We are not a media outlet, we are not a public information dispensory, and we are not a public action association. FanForce is a private group (part of TFN) not under the government's auspices and as such the TOS supercedes in all things...if you doubt this then please check the recent Supreme Court rulings on the Boy Scouts of America in regards to what private organizations can chose to ban at their whim. Please don't bring this up again, statements like this in my opinion serve to only muddy the waters and inflame opinions on the subject until they get totally out of control. As an NRA member I have seen this way too many times on both sides of THAT argument. The topic you wish to discuss is the morality and honor of having Subjugator banned. Please come out and say it and refrain from grandstanding.

    On to the discussion about the morality of Subjugator being banned. I'm not an officer so I don't know the full situation. I choose to believe that our Officers and RSA would not just ban a person for speaking out their mind. There were probably a bunch of PM's flying back and forth that none of us ever saw, so we only have half...if that...of the story here. Before we go ballistic, let's have our City Reps and RSA post what they want to regarding the situation. Once we understand their thought process then maybe we can realize they had a good point or not.

    And before anybody decides to comment on our officers...no they weren't elected, so what, they volunteered. Not counting Greymarch, I haven't seen any flak or anger towards their performance until this point. So I don't think they have gone from good leaders to fascist overlords in a 48 hour timespan. If they had made well reasoned decisions before I'm gonna guess they'll continue the trend and have a solid reason for doing what they did.

    Void Dancer

    EDIT

    I apologise for the anger factor in this, but I'm going to let it stand as is. I'm not trying to attack you Skywalkersound, nor insult you, in any way. I have been involved in several pitched campaigns where people have done their best to hide what they really wanted and fool the public. So at the risk of being blunt and insulting I want to make sure that the issue is clear before we run with it. Thank you.
  3. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    I know, the constitution was merely a reffrence in the mind-set that us americans should keep.- In which we have a right to voice our opinion.

    I was just really irked at what happened, and I honestly think that we can talk about it, without future flaming.

    -mike

    PS: Thanks void. :) - No hard feelings.
  4. Hama Retired GSA, Retired RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2000
    star 6
    From the United States Code Annotated:

    47 USC 5.II.I.230

    (c) Protection for ''Good Samaritan'' blocking and screening of offensive material

    (1) Treatment of publisher or speaker

    No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.

    (2) Civil liability

    No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of -

    (A)

    any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or

    (B)

    any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1). [1] (A).''
  5. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Hama-Ryu Kinnebi-that's cute. :)
  6. kreleia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 5
    Thank you skywalkersound and Void, for airing your opinions in a civilized manner.

    I feel it necessary to explain a few things here, seeing as how my "power" as an officer (and City Rep - yes, they're separate) has been brought into question.

    First and foremost, I am not a dictator. I am fully aware of what a dictatorship is and how they work. All of the officers AND members of PFF are welcome and encouraged to voice their opinions. This is so ALL of the officers can be informed of problems and make the decisions that will help run PFF smoothly and effectively. EDIT: If you would like to see exactly how the PFF officers were chosen, please see the threads here and here.

    I am President of PFF because I happened to be the one who decided to get things rolling and wake up the Phoenix Metro area. Those who were here during the "early days" (back in Oct, Nov, Dec) remember how "hit and miss" our so-called "meetings" were. We didn't have ANY kind of structure because there really weren't enough people to even HAVE a structure. Somehow, during that time, I became the "go to" person, and it stuck. Here I am.

    A Fan Force City Rep is VERY limited when it comes to any kind of real power here on the message boards. A City Rep is, quite frankly, nothing more than a liason between a Fan Force group and the Fan Force Moderators and Admins here on the message boards. In short, a CR is a "go-fer." We run the messages back and forth between Mods and city groups. We have blue name colors ONLY to differentiate us as the "representative." No Moderating abilities, or "powers" if you will, come with this title. I also did not appoint myself City Rep. The threads here and here show how this happened.

    Now, another thing that has come into question has been the Private Messages that were sent back and forth between Subjugator and myself. So, here they are. I'll let you decide what to think.

    The first one from me came Monday morning, after Subjugator and aero- had been going the rounds about t-shirt designs, and then Subjugator lashed out at Mara_Jade_AZ on the dues poll thread (that post has since been edited).

    From: kreleia
    Date Sent:
    5/27 12:07pm
    Date Read: 5/27 5:17pm
    Subject: What!??

    Body: What's going on!?? Why the attitude?

    We HAVE discussed dues, and yes, we all were under the impression that we had come to an agreement. Where are you getting this idea that dues are paying for food? I thought it was made VERY clear that's NOT the case! MJA knows that's NOT the case. The dues are paying for the WEBSITE and the occassional expenses such as supplies and possibly one or two MINOR perks.

    Here's the deal with PFF:
    1. We are a FAN CLUB - a STAR WARS FAN CLUB.

    2. We're NOT a charity organization.

    3. We do charity work because we WANT to - NOT because we're obligated to.

    4. Dues are to cover OUR expenses - they're not being collected to raise money for charity. Would you prefer that I keep financing PFF out of my own pocket, and that you keep paying for the website out of yours? I didn't think so.

    5. We will raise money for charity independently of dues.

    6. If we have money left over from dues at the end of the year, that will also be donated to charity.

    Now PLEASE STOP INSULTING EVERYONE. I don't know if that's your intention or not, but that's the way it's coming across. Clearly, somewhere you've gotten the wrong idea about where I and the rest of the officers want to take this organization. If you have questions, or need something clarified PLEASE ASK ME. DON'T go harping all over the people on the bo
  7. aero- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 2
    jeez...i hope i didn't cause all this...

    all was forgiven with subjugator...i don't let petty things like words on a bulletin board dominate my feelings and such... kreleia can attest to our conversation about 10 minutes after that all happened that i wasn't in the least worried about it.

    CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??? <3
  8. kreleia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 5
    No aero-, none of this is your fault. Don't worry. :)
  9. Tetris Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    Looks like things are getting better. Right?! Maybe socks aren't very safe here... ::Looks around warily::
  10. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    kreleia,

    You're human, so you're not perfect, like a droid or something... hehehe... Anyway... After reading Subj.'s PM to you, and then your 'no reply'. I think that is were the ball was dropped.- And the result was losing a member, and a website. So, perhaps this is just a great learning experience for us memebers, and officers. And as you and Obey Wann have put it, growing pains. :)

    On a side note of officers... They all volunteered, I think that means something. I could have been an officer, but I didn't volunteer, I don't have the time or the avaible commitment, and thus far, I think they have done a great job.

    I think you guys should just appologise to Subj. for banning him, kiss and make-up, that way we can look back and laugh [face_laugh] at this.

    One suggestion (if this comes up again), we should have anual/ bi-anual elections for officers (and the paying memebers should vote at a meeting).- my 2 cents.
  11. Obey Wann Former RMFF CR & SW Region RSA

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2000
    star 6
    One suggestion (if this comes up again), we should have anual/ bi-anual elections for officers (and the paying memebers should vote at a meeting).- my 2 cents.



    Great idea!!!


    Please, everyone understand that this is just growing pains. Please be patient and understand that no one is perfect.

    thanks!
  12. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    One more thing about voting....

    I got this PM, so here are my ideas.

    also, if there is ever another vote...I think it should be open to all
    members, not just paying ones. only a thought.




    Here's my reasoning...

    Why paid users should only be allowed to vote;

    People are flakes (I can be one) and people loose interest in things. If you pay $ to be a part of something you are showing some type of commitment to the group or what have you, and thus earn a right to deem the future and course of that group.

    Would you really want people to vote who are only at one meeting?- Not me.

    Conversely, you could go about it another way...

    A member has the right to vote if; they are a paying member, or if they attend 90% of the meetings and actively post on the PHX boards on TFN.

    EDIT: SP, and Mark-ups
  13. Darth_Trigue Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    I kinda agree with that idea, but...does that mean we're going to be divided into active/non-active members for purposes of voting? Are people who can't make most meetings buying the right to vote?

    And can I get a ride to meetings after this next one? lol
  14. Dvader20 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 1
    I think this whole situation was handled very poorly.

    If you would like to discuss this please PM me, so that I don't get banned for expressing my opinions on the public boards.
  15. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Darth_Trigue,

    I don't know what stage we're at in terms of defining who is a member and who is not, I think that it's up to the officers, as of right now.- But I'm sure there could be side rules or perhaps the PFF might one day split into smaller groups closer to other locals. Like a East Valley FF, and a West Valley, I dunno, just some ideas. The Queen or Obey Wann would have better input then me.

    You know another idea would be that, we could have a poll thread here, and have it timed, or do what we did for the icon vote, just send in your User ID number and you're vote.
  16. VoidDancer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2002
    star 5
    Didn't Skywalkersound post his opinion and not get banned just above ? I don't think that's a concern and it probably takes more than that to earn a banning.
  17. Darth_Trigue Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    Oh, don't worry about me stressing over it. :)

    I'm kinda trying to point out that there are some potential problems with the suggestion in a non-confrontational, funnish sort of way. That's why I added that last line about asking for a ride.

    Then again, my sense of humor is dry and doesn't lend well to written forms, especially when everybody is all stressed about the topic.

    Rest assured, I'M OKAY! ~grins~

    Everybody feel better now?

    No?

    ~pouts~

    Well, go tickle a two-year-old. It helps. I have one right here if anyone needs to borrow him for stress relief. :) Well, it always helps me! He's up for a lightsaber duel if that's more your style for stress relief too.

    Just...everybody chill.

    I forsee a meeting where people DO NOT leap across tables to kill someone else because they dared mention money. hehehe I forsee us reaching a decision, some people scowling, some people thinking "This will fail, it has to fail" and most of us just happy that it is HISTORY. :) ~shrugs~ It's all part of the group dynamic.
  18. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Actually, I think alomst everyone is pretty chill right now. :)

    If I had a two year old handy, I'd open all my SW toys and we'd be playing with them like crazy! [face_laugh]
  19. aero- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 2
    skywalkersound, i think this is perhaps one of the most intelligent threads on the board i've seen so far...

    the idea of annual elections on officers (bi-annual causes too much conflict) is a great idea, especially only to paying members (see skywalker's reasoning above). not only is this because of commitment, but it also shows non-paying members that if they want to be heard at least concerning the politics of the way the PFF is handled, then they need to shell out a few bucks ($$$ MARKETING SCHEME! $$$)

    i'm not out there to get anyone's money. just a joke! however, i do believe that if you are willing to put forth some of your hard earned money, you should be granted certain priviledges, and being able to vote on certain motions brought forward and being able to elect officers is a decent priviledge. i'm all for that.

    -aero
  20. Ion_Control Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2002
    star 3
    <comes into conversation>

    Okay, I just was able to read my emails after coming back from out-of-state, and I have a few words to say.

    1) Your opinions matter. I don't think I've ever heard kreleia or any of the other officers suggest something without practicully begging people for their opinions.

    2) Lady_Jedi_Carenix = Treasurer. I am open to hearing suggestions for what to do with dues/what not to do/not have dues at all, etc, but if has something to do with dues I'd really appreciate it if people would actually specifically talk to me about it.

    EDIT: Mark-up codes. Narf! :(
    EDIT: Ion_Control has had a nap. Feels much better now. :)
  21. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    aero-- thanks man!

    I think that almost everyone would agree with it, simply because it somewhat follows our own governing system (US government).

    You know, everytime I read your sig I can't stop laughing!- I love those movies!
  22. MexChewie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Trigue

    I'm afraid of fighting your two year old because he disarms me so easily. ;)
  23. aero- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 2
    *cough*authority!*cough*
  24. Ion_Control Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2002
    star 3
    BTW, one of the things that officers have been talking about is to have elections for officer positions, so we are very conscious about meeting "regular" members needs. ;) :D

    At least that's the impression I get. :)
  25. Obey Wann Former RMFF CR & SW Region RSA

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2000
    star 6
    This thread is going much better than I expected when I first saw it. I overreacted and deleted the original one, and skywalkersound explained it to me, and I let him re-post it. I overreacted, was shown the error of my ways (or my misunderstanding), and we let the discussion continue.

    The discussion has been well thought out, well said, and even a bit of humor. No one is going ballistic, and that's a good thing. :D No one is banned for simply disagreeing.


    I'll be PM'ing DVader20, to find out his opinions. Yes, there were some mistakes made, but please understand that this is just growing pains. We will work through it, and come out stronger for having done so.


    Also, SS mentioned above that we should subdivide the PFF into more local FF's within the Valley. I have been trying for months (just ask Krelia, or any of the officers), and have received a flat forehead for my efforts.

    I have pushed for multiple CR's, suburb FF's and forums, FF VIP's, local VIP's, more recognition, and other changes --all of this at the FF Admin/Staff level. I have met with heavy resistance, but continue to fight for what the average member wants, and for what I feel is for the betterment of the whole FF.

    I still expect it to be another 6 months before I can get some of these changes made, based on the way things go. But recently we were able to almost get 2 new boards started for the betterment of all --FF Conventions and FF Activities. It takes time to make changes at a global level, and it takes time to make changes at a local level. Especially when we are all volunteers doing this for the love of SW. We still have jobs, families ,other hobbies, lives, etc.

    Please understand that we will work through this.

    Thanks!!

    I am open to PM for advice, ideas, comments or criticism.
Moderators: DieWompRatDie
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.