Congresswoman shot in AZ (Update: in stable condition)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by shanerjedi, Jan 8, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Gabrielle Giffords was shot dead this morning while attending a local rally according to various media sources. 5 others were also fatally wounded when a gunman rushed the congresswoman, who was outside a Safeway talking to constituents as part of her Congress on the Corner series she has promoted.


    Here is a link to one of the news outlets coverage of the story: AZ Congresswoman Giffords shot dead


    This was in Pima Co. which is in her district.

    In congress she promoted stem cell research, alternative energy research, stronger border security, and has issued calls to step up efforts to thwart the ongoing struggle along our border with the drug cartels.

    My question is: is this the result of her strong stance against the cartels, a lone nutjob, or some wacky right winger?

    It's too early to say now but the suspect was described as in his late teens-early 20's.

    This might well be a cartel hit.

    Ive seen her speak on a very few instances but she always seemed like she represented her electorate well.

    RIP Gabrielle Giffords. [face_flag]

    MOD EDIT: Changed the title to reflect that reports of her death were incorrect at present
  2. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6

    Reports of her death are currently being retracted; she's apparently still alive and in surgery. Of course, even if she survives, she was shot in the head. She might suffer from brain damage to a greater or lesser extent.

    Not surprisingly, it's being suggested that right wing politics might have influenced the attack. Looking at comments around the Internet, there seems to be three seperate camps: Democrats who are certain that this is the work of Republicans and who want revenge, Republicans who are cheering the work of the young patriot who took out a dangerous maverick who was trying to destroy America, and people from both sides of the aisle who are absolutely horrified that a person was shot while actively fulfilling her responsibilities as a congresswoman by listening to her people. Fortunately, the third group is much, much larger than the first and second.

  3. kingthlayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2003
    star 4
    I am watching CNN now, and they have not confirmed that she is dead. From what I understand, she is undergoing surgery for a gunshot wound to the head. It doesn't sound promising, but I continue to hope that she will pull through. Clearly there have been some fatalities, which is terrible news.

    Raven, as I'm sure you agree, anyone in those first two groups should be ashamed of themselves. We know virtually nothing about the shooter other than his gender and age. It could be a politically motivated shooting but it could also be some random nut who did this for attention.
  4. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Anyone who would cheer what this guy did is sick. Period.

    And this congresswoman isn't some crazy politician that would incite a right wing rabble(which wouldn't make this action excusable either but it would be something that perhaps you could see tensions rising to this point). Ive seen this woman on a few occasions. She's sensible, she's smart and she keeps in touch with her constituents.

    I mean if there are a small minority of people who think they are some sort of black hand group or some wackiness that will engender support, they are sorely mistaken.

    The reason I bring up the cartels is because Pima Co. is fast becoming a no-go zone because of the actions of cartels. And she has been outspoken in recent months about tightening border security and clamping down on the cartels movements in So. AZ.
  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    More people should have jumped the guy and started kicking him. He just went around in the store and shot at people. What a said day for the state of AZ. Even if she pulls out of this her life will never be the same.

  6. LtNOWIS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2005
    star 4
    Well, apparently the shooter was subdued on the scene and is in custody. It's easy to say, "Oh, they should have tackled him sooner," but it's quite hard to react quickly in a situation like that.

    As for blame, I believe it's wrong for people to immediately stir up blame without there being evidence. I mean, even if you're going to use a horrible tragedy as a rhetorical weapon, why not at least wait until the facts come out?

    It goes without saying that this is a terrible, evil, deplorable event.
  7. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    May 20, 2008
    star 8
    For whatever motives there were in the shooting, it's still the fact that someone would go to these lengths that is really sick.

    And about allowing the gunman to run free in the store, not many people are going to stand up to someone with a gun unless they are trained to do so, or have a gun in their hand. People would obviously be afraid, and would run at the first possible moment.

    [face_flag] RIP.
  8. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    I've updated this as current reports have her as alive, and the doctors are hopeful for a recovery at this point. I'd woken up and turned on the tv to see coverage of this, and I've not felt quite so dropped into confusion since 9/11 in trying to sort out what happened. It's going to be a very interesting thing to see what was the cause of this, but right now, this is a tragic event for the people that ARE dead, something that I'm rather offended by MSNBC not covering.
  9. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    So far, John McCain's statement, of those I've seen from politicians, may be my favourite:
  10. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    Meh. I'm guessing you're not serious, but I can do without everyone's variation of "this was bad". I find it boring.
  11. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    To who and in re: to what was that directed?
  12. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    1) You

    2) I think politicians/ anyone trying to find the strongest way to say "this was bad" is boring.

    3) I thought you were kidding. I mean what with all God references he makes...
  13. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I spent the day at one son's basketball game and another son's swim meet and first heard about the shooting on NPR during the car ride home. A tragedy for the families of those killed and injured, about to be compounded and amplified by endless weeks of media circus and political posturing.
  14. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    I wasn't kidding, at least in how that reads, that seems like McCain's statement isn't the standard "great tragedy" etc that most statements in these situations are, his conveys not just sadness or concern, but that he is very seriously angry about this. It feels like a much more human response than the canned responses most of the other politicians have given. I've no qualms with him, speaking on a personal level, mentioning a god like that. Although intriguingly, Wikipedia has, when I last checked, edited that quote down to omit the part where he mentions praying and god.
  15. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    My issue is that John McCain sounds unhinged and angry about everything. He's more or less made a trade out of personal animus as a political performance. It's unbecoming.
  16. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    While I'm not a McCain fan, that's not a pattern I'd noticed that strongly with him, although in this case, this is precisely the sort of thing where being angry is completely justified.
  17. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I just watched the press conference.


    The shooter was a 22 year old college student in Arizona, who has had recent trouble with the authorities, and the sheriff called him mentally unbalanced and affected by political vitriol. He is in jail currently, tackled to the ground by two bystanders.

    An accomplice of the shooter is on the loose. Yes, there is a second suspect, but it's not believed he shot some of the victims.

    The weapon was a semi-automatic pistol. She was shot outside a grocery store during a town hall type of meeting.

    Rumors are going around about his ramblings on YouTube and MySpace, stuff about currency, but his identity hasn't been confirmed yet.


    Six are dead, among them a federal judge and a 9 year old girl.

    Congresswoman Giffords is in very critical condition, but she could survive. She was shot in the head from 4 feet away, the bullet passed right through her brain and out her head again, but she is said to be responsive in the hospital. It sounds like a miracle that she survived at all.

  18. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I just tried watching a couple of the shooter's videos on YouTube. His ideological rants make so little sense that I wonder if he might be schizophrenic.
  19. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Yeah, I watched those too. I'm very confused by em. His views that I can discern are also very tricky to pin down, it seems.
  20. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Can you imagine how much outrage there would be right now if it were a Republican who had been shot in the same manner? Really that was my first thought when I heard the news that a Congresswoman had been shot, "if this is a Republican, all hell will break loose".
  21. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Can you imagine how much outrage there would be right now if it were a Republican who had been shot in the same manner? Really that was my first thought when I heard the news that a Congresswoman had been shot, "if this is a Republican, all hell will break loose".

    I'd say that this is truly a misplaced, misguided statement. It was a human being who was shot, and I don't think the reaction is determined by the political party she happened to identify with.

    I'd also say that attempts to shoehorn the shooter under a single label will also be misplaced as well. Considering that he has prior arrests for drug paraphernalia, lists the collections of Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and Animal Farm as those which influenced him the most, and left a rambling manifesto like Seung-Hui Cho (the Virginia Tech shooter) did- all point to the fact that mentally unstable is just that. He had strong elements of both far left and far right, "far" being the operative word in both equations that linked his anti-government rhetoric.

    What's also sad is that this looks to be shaping up like another Columbine, Virginia Tech, and probably countless others in that friends/acquaintances may have been aware that he was becoming more and more unhinged, but didn't get him the help he needed, and the Sheriff who knew of him, didn't have the authority to act until something like this happened.
  22. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 6
    Yeah, based on what I've seen on local news (I'm in the rather unique position of being right down the ****ing block from all of this. Oy vey), he's looking like a near textbook schizophrenia case. Young adult male in his late teens or early twenties? Check. Long, rambling tirades? Check. Outright erroneous information including a belief that my district is 95% illiterate, the government practices mind control, and that people are routinely brainwashed using machines? Check.

    Guy needed help, and instead, he got to go buy an automatic.

    That said, I don't think the hyper rhetoric from either side is really helping the situation in general. It only takes one whack-job hearing folks spew on and on about the dangers of government and the need for violent resistance to go and, y'know, try to kill my congresswoman and everyone around her.
  23. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Yeah, well, that's George Orwell for you.
  24. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I think that this is a point that bears repeating.

    Almost every time that something like this happens, there is an initial reaction from many people (particularly those who see everything through a political lens) to jump to conclusions about the person who did it and their associations with certain political groups. When Reagan was shot in the 1980s, the first reports suggested that the shooter had political motivations. Instead, he turned out to be mentally ill and trying to impress an actress. With the Oklahoma City bombing, people assumed that it was the work of Islamic extremists, and it turned out to be domestic terrorists who were completely unaffiliated with Islam.

    It is important to remember that we don't have much information at first with these sort of incidents, and so we need to avoid jumping to conclusions and accusing others of causing them. That can be difficult, because the first reaction is always an emotional one.

    Perhaps we should bring up the Gun Control thread for that discussion, but there is no legal prohibition (at least on the federal level, your state may vary a little) against a schizophrenic owning a gun, and any attempt at such a prohibition would either be ineffective, or a massive violation of patient/doctor confidentiality.

    Currently, in most states, when you go to buy a gun from a dealer, they run your information through a FBI program called NICS, the National Instance Check System. (Some states, like Virginia, run their own separate system when queries NICS for you as part of their check.) NICS is supposed to be a database denoting everyone who has been disqualified from possessing a gun. If they don't find a match, then your purchase is cleared. If they find a possible match, they do some additional checking to verify whether you are the person indicated, and then they either approve or deny the purchase.

    Currently, the only mental health-related item that disqualifies you from firearms ownership (per federal law) is being involuntarily committed. The reason for that is largely because of patient confidentiality measures and due process. In order to be involuntarily committed, it requires a court order, which can then be added to NICS. Pretty much every other mental health record is, by law, required to be kept confidential for privacy reasons. Moreover, not every state has released all of their court records to NICS, either because they haven't yet computerized them, or because of other laws relating to privacy and mental health. (According to this article from 2005, on 17 states had submitted involuntary commitment records to NICS.)

    Additionally, if you start claiming that mental health is a prohibiting factor, how will you set the criteria for it? Under some definitions of mental illness, having been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD would be prohibiting, and yet I have known many, many people who are extremely responsible gun owners who have those disorders (myself included). As that article I linked to states:
    Some anti-gun organizations have suggested that all mentally ill individuals should be prohibited from purchasing firearms. Just for the sake of argument, how would one go about identifying all mentally ill people?

    The former U.S. Surgeon General estimates that 20 percent of Americans suffer from some type of mental illness. How would m
  25. Vezner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
    That has nothing to do with this. I posted this in the JCC and it's worth mentioning here as well, according to a supposed friend of his in high school, this kid was a left wing nut job. Now the reason I bring this up isn't to shift blame to the liberals for what happened. I'm simply trying to point out that it's ridiculous to place blame anywhere but on the shooter. He picked up the gun and he pulled the trigger. NO ONE else is to blame.

    Having said that, if the liberals are looking for someone to blame for this tragedy, they better start looking in the mirror instead of trying to blame the tea party, Glen Beck, George Bush, Sarah Palin, or any other conservatives. Just saying. :)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.