Connecting the trilogies

It doesn't have to hold water for you, it just has to hold water for Lucas.

Personally, I like the way that would tie back to the good man who was Luke's father, as opposed to the disfigured wreck of a being that he had become as Vader. It wouldn't have bothered me if they hadn't made that change, but now that it seems very possible, I think it's for the better.

 

That pic was made on photoshop. if it were real, LFL would have ordered its removal months ago. And it doesn't matter if you think it holds water, or that it holds water for him. Anakin returned at the moment he killed Palpatine. He was Anakin when the mask came off, so all the aging effects of time come back. In the Force's eyes, it is Anakin who dies in ROTJ, not Vader--regardless of what came in between his change in identity.

You don't create new rules and change the films to fit them; the rules have to fit the films as they exist already.

And aren't you the same guy who thought that Obi-Wan would have a second apprentice just to cover up the fact that Anakin has become Vader? You were very confident of that a few years ago too. That's not happening either.

 

Well I was trying to come up with possible ways he could have kept Vader's true identity a secret. I figured you had to have a second apprentice to allow the dialoge in ANH to make sense when Obi-Wan talks about how Vader was a pupil of his.

By AOTC, I realized that Anakin would be Obi-Wan's only pupil, so this "bait and switch" theory was obviously out of the question. I never could figure out a way around that. I was hoping Lucas could keep the suprise of ESB in tact, but now that things are all falling into place, I can see how the revelation scene will play in a different way, it's still pretty impactful, just for different reasons.

I could see why Lucas would want to tie everything up in a nice little bow with a visual reference to Anakin before he turned to the dark side. When you consider that in the original, Anakin died a withered up torso, yet showed up next to Yoda and Obi-Wan like a vibrant 50 year old man, your theory about precedence is what doesn't hold water. To me the only difference is that now he will resemble the Anakin we remeber from the prequels.

Sebastian Shaw's dying performance is still in tact. and the change in look might as well just be what happens when someone who looks like Hayden Cristiansen gets dipped in lava, and has to spend the rest of his life encased in an iron lung suit with robotic limbs.

Even if that screenshot we saw was just a bad photoshop, I could still see this happening.

 

I could see why Lucas would want to tie everything up in a nice little bow with a visual reference to Anakin before he turned to the dark side. When you consider that in the original, Anakin died a withered up torso, yet showed up next to Yoda and Obi-Wan like a vibrant 50 year old man, your theory about precedence is what doesn't hold water. To me the only difference is that now he will resemble the Anakin we remeber from the prequels.

He was still played by Sebastian Shaw, just without the scarrring. Just as Obi-Wan was still played by Alec Guinness. You can't justify one without the other. He still resembles Anakin the way he was when he died.

Sebastian Shaw's dying performance is still in tact. and the change in look might as well just be what happens when someone who looks like Hayden Cristiansen gets dipped in lava, and has to spend the rest of his life encased in an iron lung suit with robotic limbs.

It's what happens when you age Hayden Christensen two decades. The ghost is what Anakin would have looked like minus the iron lung, with natural aging. You don't see Obi-Wan's hairline restored, because that's part of natural aging.

Changing it to Christensen completely negates the message of ROTJ, or at least makes it internally inconsistent. The "Jedi" of the title is Anakin, or at least includes him. The ghost is supposed to be proof of Anakin's complete redemption. Obi-Wan and Yoda died as Jedi, and keep their appearance at death. If the ghost resembles young Anakin, when he was last a true Jedi, that means the Force doesn't recognize that he became Anakin again, and became a Jedi again. He was a Jedi decades ago, but he didn't die a true Jedi. If he died a Jedi, then that is the appearance he should have--Sebastian Shaw.

Whatever rule is established for Jedi ghosts cannot escape one fact: Shaw plays Anakin. He played Anakin in 1983, and in 1997. That sets the continuity.

 

Yeah but Anakin dies when he turns into Darth Vader.

Obi-Wan dies with a receeding hairline.

It all makes perfect sense if you would let it.

 

"Yeah but Anakin dies when he turns into Darth Vader.
It all makes perfect sense if you would let it."

No, it doesn't make any sense. Anakin doesn't "die" when he takes the name Darth Vader! Does Dooku die when he becomes Tyrannus? Was Dooku "dead" on the moon of Bogden hiring Jango, but "alive" on Geonosis, dead later on Geonosis, then back alive, then dead again on Coruscant? Does Palpatine die and then come back alive when he acts as Sidious several times a day?? Did Anakin die just before the Tusken slaughter and then come back to life? No, this "dying" personality dualism theory makes no sense at all. The PT films make perfectly clear there is specifically NOT an either/or, black/white, good/evil mechanism at work in the GFFA.

You can see right there in TPM and AOTC where Vader comes from, right there at the dinner table in TPM, and EIII will only give us the last straws. The force ghosts at the end of ROTJ explain nothing, unless you take them to be spirits. Benign spirits are usually portrayed in films as unscarred aparitions, right?

Can it just be that simple? Can't it also be that Lucas has been doing some fake EIII leaking all along?? For months on this site I'd read about how Padme was definitely going to be cut into the CT, purportedly from OS leaks, but a recent interview with Portman showed she didn't know anything about it. The lesson is, don't believe every spoiler you read

 

I don't remember anyone claiming that Padme being added to the classic trilogy was an ILM leak. From what I saw it was all just rampant speculation on our part.

I still say Hayden as the Force ghost makes perfect sense. It's a way to tie things back to the good man who was Luke's father, as opposed to the twisted wreck of a man he turned into as Darth Vader.

 

Go-Mer-Tonic, I think I saw the Padme thing on the news pages as well, not just the forums. Anyway, it was only one example...

I would need to know clearly from EIII why someone's force ghost gets locked to a certain appearance at a particular moment of their life before this young Anakin force ghost replacement makes a shred of sense. Besides, how do you address my counter examples above?? I think it's just as you mention, rampant speculation, nothing more...

 

IMO the forceghosts are just the people in their ideal forms

Obi-Wan and Yoda are still themselves as they "die", they have no "attachments"(i think thats the key-word when taking Anakin into consideration) to any form they've been in years past.

Anakin however has very strong attachments to his Episode II/III form. His love Padme was with him, he was still a respectable man in the Jedi order, his unborn children (assuming he knows she's pregnant) and the of course the last period in his life he could breathe without heaving to rely on mechanics.

IMO it makes sense for him to appear as a younger self.

 

I personally think replacing the older Anakin with a younger is kinda cheesy, not to mention totally disrespectful of one actor's work. The fact that Anakin was redeemed shows that he was never too far gone to come back to the light. It shows that "Anakin" was there all along. If Anakin's force ghost looks like Hayden, why doesnt OB1's look like Ewan? At the very least, it would make sense if GL IS going to replace Shaw, at least make it Hayden looking older to be at that age. Ya know what, never mind. As soon as I typed that I cringed.

 

In defence of the Hayden change, I don't really see it creating an inconsistancy, rather, I feel perhaps Lucus always had the idea of pre-Vader Anakin's ghost being in that scene, but having not made the prequel trilogy, he obviously had no actor to play this part, and that itself would have created the inconsistancy of young Anakin being in the scene, but looking different at the same age in the PT...

I feel perhaps Lucus used Shaw as a stand-in for this scene, which he intended to correct should he get the chance to make his PT...

Though I don't have much of an opinion on whether the change should have been made, it's not much of a life changing factor me which of two actors is in a scene. I think it's a pretty good idea, but the way in which it was done was rather poor, especially considering the technology at hand...

 

Go-Mer-Tonic, I found a summary from another fan discussion site, "The Bothan Spy", about the Padmé thing, rumoured to be added to the end of ROTJ:

An aged Padmé Skywalker, who we are led to believe died in Episode III, tearfully approaches Luke and Leia and hugs them. Luke raises his arms in the air with his lightsaber in his hand and ignites it. Credits role. The scene was shot using the best doubles that could be found. The new scene already looks great as is but the shots are now being worked on by a crew at ILM, who intend to recreate the actors faces circa 1982 and won't be satisfied until it's perfect.
http://forums.thebothanspy.com/showthread.php?t=6458&goto=nextoldest

My point, for all of you supporting this Anakin change, is that if you take this added Padmé scene to be total rumour, then why is the Anakin ghost change, which appears in the same fan-dominated settings, taken as a done deal?? Until I see proof that Anakin's visage is going to be changed or is changed, at which point some of your convoluted justifications for it will be needed, I'll file this under fanboy speculation...

ps. don't get snobby and try to tell me TF.N is any better or more official than any other fan site. It could use a makeover, for one thing, but it's a fan site nonetheless...

 

Because the dvd-ROTJ has leaked and Anakin/Naboo/all other changes are there

but no Padme

 

You guys can debate whether this unconfirmed change is right or not all you want, but would you please start talking about rules. There are no rules. If Lucas has some rules that he wants to show in Episode III, we don't know them yet. It's like you guys are making up the rules as you go along. Everything we know is from the movies, and so far they haven't explained anything about this Force ghost thing, so therefore we know nothing!