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Senate Consequences of U.S. Torture

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jabbadabbado, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Ok, but this is a normative question and not a descriptive one. It's not a question of what "people" do -- it's a question of what we do. So do we stoop to petty crime because it can be effective, or do we go to work in the morning? Do we as a nation simply quell dissent by force, or do we allow free speech?

    I mean, the idea that people CAN do something bad until they can no longer get away with it could easily be an apology for dictatorship or totalitarianism. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.
     
    SithLordDarthRichie likes this.
  2. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Most of us do not stoop to petty crime because it is not effective, the risk does not out weigh the reward. Or investment in the social contract so we might live with a stable environment as apposed to chaos.

    For example a nation that say invades another nation.

    The invading nations existence is not being threatened, its not suffering a crisis environmental that might override common sense.

    Is the invading nation disassembled and its territories reorganized? Is that nation killed, as an organization and its people scattered to the winds?

    If nations faced this reality for invading a fellow, if this was a consequence national behavior would be very different. If every war is a war of survival rather than a war of choice, that will change an entire societies psychology.


    Whats the theory called? Diffusion of responsibility? I forget.

    Anywho, it is not about what should be, most people raised right knows what should be: Justice, Honor, Fraternity, Liberty, all the ideals were were raised to aspire to. It is about what is. And without intensive to change things will not change, Until the discovery of the damaging properties of lead it was a common construction material, Governments endorsed slavery until it became a economic hindrance on the global scale. Government was fine with racial injustice until the boycott.

    Ideals a great, but adjustments must be made for the reality of the situation. If the nations of the world or a sizable region bands together and boycotts the United States, until like the Montgomery Transit Authority, it is ready to negotiate. Things will not change.
     
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Or because it's wrong.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. LandoThe CapeCalrissian

    LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    so youre that soft as a human being that you have a problem with someone catching a beating.. How often do you think the CIA takes in a wrongfully accused suspected terrorist overseas and it turns out the guy just runs a store or something with 0 terrorist ties?? id say its slim to none..

    So when they catch someone handing out a beating doesn't seem to be a problem., all out torture?? sure I can see why someone would be against that, but just handing down a beating is something that happens in every school play ground on a daily basis..
     
  5. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    So you're saying that the ideal that national governments ought to aspire to is that of the schoolyard bully, then?
     
  6. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Mmmmm Hmmm, because what is wrong and right is universally agreed upon?

    Or his what is wrong a concept that is flexible and totally dependent on a given situation.
     
  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    So sayeth the relativists.

    The point was, not everyone makes a decision not to do crime because of an amoral and soulless risk/reward calculation. Maybe some people do. But that doesn't apply to everyone. Many crimes are considered crimes in the first place because they are, in fact, immoral acts, and some people choose not to do them because they have a moral objection to hurting the innocent for personal gain, not because they're worried about getting caught.
     
    GrandAdmiralJello likes this.
  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    No, not everyone is as wanting of a moral compass as you seem to be.
     
  9. LandoThe CapeCalrissian

    LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    No,what I said was giving someone a beating, especially someone with terrorist ties isn't something most people care about. At the end of the day it is what it is, a beating..

    And getting into a fight in a school yard isn't something only bullies do, kids fight, doesn't mean one is automatically a bully.
     
  10. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Except we're not talking about a fair fight now, are we? One-sided beatings of someone who is powerless to resist you generally does make one a bully.
     
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  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Is there a purpose behind these beatings, or is it ok just because people allegedly don't care?
     
  12. LandoThe CapeCalrissian

    LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    oh wait I forgot the terrorist who plots the deaths of innocents, especially that of little children like the Taliban has made a career of aren't the bullies.. How silly of me...

    google how many girls schools they've bombed, than tell me they aren't bullies...
     
  13. Point Given

    Point Given Mod of Literature and Community star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    So why should we stoop to that level?

    And we've hit innocents with drone strikes as well.
     
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  14. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I need to point out the difference between hitting them and targeting them (law of war principle of distinction) and that civilian casualties are allowed in wartime so long as not incommensurate with the legitimate military objectives (proportionality).

    Don't draw hasty equivalencies.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
     
  15. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Call it "that soft as a human being" if you like. I just call it being human. I won't speculate on the CIA's hit/miss rate since neither you or I should do so, having utterly no knowledge or reliable materials upon which to make a wild guess like that. You're arguing the sad old "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" argument in pastel form, which is no better so pastelised -- because history shows, quite often, that the reverse is the case.