Consider Your Source... (Betrayal Spoilers)

... we now know that Jacen Solo is a Sith and has agreed to officially learn their teachings (whether he believes it or not is another matter)...


... but Vergere was not necessarily so. It *fits* as Jacen agreed, but Lumiya saying it doesn't make it so.

 

Shouldn´t this belong to the main Betrayal thread?

 

No, since this is going to generate about 12 pages of discussion, most likely, with "Yes she is," "No she isn't" and I didn't want to clog the other thread.

 

I guess it doesn't really matter if she was a Sith or not. The only thing that does matter is if Jacen believes it.

Lumiya is smart enough to play to Jacen's predilections for Vergere's philosophy to get him to join her. Implying that Vergere was somehow similiar to herself gives Lumiya an air of credibility to Jacen. She was an intelligence officer after all and we KNOW that she can fool people and make them believe what she wants them to believe.

Sad really, that Jacen's buying it hook line and sinker. Even more so considering he apparently knows her background and history of being a spy.

 

That's not even really the sad part. The sad part would be if Jacen HIMSELF doesn't believe it and believes himself only going along with it to try and bring them down from the inside. Except, of course, he's deluded himself as "He exists" now... it's too late for him, whether he knows it or not.

 

That would be a bit too Ulic Qel-Dromaish for my liking. I'd like it much more if he went evil because he chose to.

 

Maybe that won't be the sad part. The reason Luke went over was because he thought he could defeat the Dark Side from the inside, but required Leia and Anakin to bring him back. Jacen knows why Luke went over, but might think that he has learnt enough to be able to avoid the pitfalls, especially with Vergere's teaching mindset. Thus, in his arrogance...

 

^^ I have to say, that would be very Jacen-like.

 

those who know me know my potentium, jacen, vergere stuff^^ so in short some points on betrayal and revelations:


Luke still sees jacen as dangerous.

ok, I say: he IS dangerous and slightly off course.. that even I see
but my point is, not vergere is responsible for that, like most fans claim!
vergere switched between light and dark.. jacen is too concentrated on one way only, one solution for everything. she was dark when the time needed darkness, and light when time allowed. jacen doesn´t switch, he pretends to switch but can´t really do so.. anymore. the potentium or vergere are not responsible for this, JACEN is responsible for JACEN, and he was always jacen. so who to blaim? not her, she managed to switch like she wished, he can´t, he only tries. so he´s to blaim for his actions, not vergere or the potentium.


btw something else:

and the mention that Vergere tried to kill Palpatine but failed.. no apprentice is that stupid after only a short time of training. maybe it was her jedi side that tried to kill him.. but the potentium time made her accept some sith lore later.

 

I tend to agree with Zebra3 that what ultimately matters is Jacen believing Vergere was a Sith.

I'm inclined to believe Lumiya, as Sith tend not to lie but rather speak in half-truths and twist things out of perspective. I imagine the truth is Vergere probably was as Sith and did attempt to train under Palpatine, if only, as Jacen said, to explore all facets of the Force.

Whether she remained a Sith after she discovered Palpatine's true nature is another story. To be honest I don't know if we'll ever know. It seems like the story of Darth Plagueis, its what convinced Jacen to join the Sith. The truth could take a long time to emerge as it may not even be revealed in LOTF.

If Vergere was evil; its a done deal. She lied, got Jacen to join the Sith, everything Lumiya said was true. The galaxy is doomed. If Vergere was good; she might have just absorbed the Sith teachings into her overall Potentium view and had hoped Jacen wouldn't become corrupted but be able to maintain a balance. Its also possible Vergere was simply exactly the same as Jacen; i.e. delluded and mislead, believing what she believed but not willing to accept the truth.

The self-sacrifice thing is what gets me most though. Even if Vergere was a Sith I'm inclined to feel that she died a Jedi, comparable to Vader, as despite what Lumiya said self-sacrifice just doesn't seem a Sith quality. There also is some inconsistency given that to return as a ghost after she had died as a Sith would go against things Yoda and other Jedi Masters have said, I imagine that'll be a minor issue as far as the authors are concerned though.

 

Was Ventress a Sith? Sedriss? Mara? Blackhole? Kyp? Marvel-era Lumiya?

Even if Lumiya's telling the complete truth, Vergere almost certainly had far less Sith training than all of these people, and Jacen, thus far, has had none, aside from Vergere's (supposed) prep work. Deciding to learn the ways of the Sith may inexorably lead to this:

[image=http://starbase8.de/starwars/toys/diverses/unleashed/sideous_detail.jpg]

but it's not like flipping on a big "SITH!" light switch on your back. It takes years.

 

Even if Vergere "died as a Jedi", her supposed Force Ghost goes against the current reasoning behind the whole Force Ghost -thing. Or perhaps she trained secretly under Qui-Gon Jinn too?

There have been Sith ghosts that can travel from one place to another; it wouldn´t be surprising if Vergere could use some Sith knowledge at least to linger on for some time to appear to Jacen, or perhaps it was a Dark Side apparition like "dark Jacen" that appeared to Jacen after her death, or maybe her Sith ghost still exists?

 

And Anakin Sr. had all kinds of things happen that led up to it, including his life as a slave, his marriage, the Jedi's treatment of him, his own fear/greed resulting from these things along with a supremely powerful Sith lord whispering in his ear over ten years. And still had the little bit of the good in him.

If Jacen is falling this easy, then he's been bad from the beginning.

 

Two words: Darth Traya

A Sith is going to self-sacrifice themselves for revenge if there's no other way to achieve the revenge. (self-preservation takes a backseat to the fruition of well-laid plans, methinks)

 

DP im with the Vergere was a Sith deal. If it walks like a duck.. talks like a duck.. (speak Sith).. THEN ITS A FRIGGIN DUCK crowd.

Even a liar *who I think everyone can agree Lumiya is (and is very good at it Sith/FMR Intelligence Officer) usually leaves a core of truth in thier lies (to make it easier to swallow), and bieng a liar doesnt precude one from EVER telling the truth.

A Sith is going to self-sacrifice themselves for revenge if there's no other way to achieve the revenge. wink (self-preservation takes a backseat to the fruition of well-laid plans, methinks)

See also Lord Kaan.

 

I guess that makes Betrayal KOTOR III then with the character names changed?

There was an actually a fair comment on Wookieepedia by someone who suggested Jacen might become Darth Traya. I doubt that'll happen personally, or at least I'd prefer Jacen to have a unique name, but it was a mildly interesting thought.

 

Jacen is so gullible! My old teacher, who lied to me and tortured me, was a Sith. Lumiya, a master of deception, told me so. I had a bad dream. So why not become a Sith too, and kill a Jedi?


Anyways, I can see either of these happening:

I.
Vergere did train for a while under Sidious, but did return to the light. But the darkside "forever dominates your destiny," so that's why she still had some dark tendencies.

The whole "A Sith can be good, Darth Vectivus never did anything bad" is, of course, only from a certain point of view. We'll learn Vectivus did do something evil, but by the time Jacen learns it he'll already be twisted and see it as good.

Lumiya learned about Vergere from the Emperor and Darth Vader. As for knowing what happened to her during the Yuuzhan Vong war, she came across Nom Anor. And he, having witnessed the whole process Jacen went through, was a useful source of info that convinced Lumiya to come out of hiding and convert Jacen.

OR

II.

Vergere didn't die, she's still alive, and a Sith. She only made a phantom vision of herself appear, and the starfighter was in autopilot. Lumiya knows this, since Vergere found her after the war and they plotted together to complete Jacen's turn.

 

I agree with Dingo.

That being said, i think jacen is a complete idiot. Let's take as fact, that luiya was trained by verger for a time. Veger had no problem using deception to obtain her goal, niether does he. Why does he believe a word of lumiya is saying, since she is just as likely to be decpetive (She does lie to him about the station). Also jacen talked about how his view of the force was complete and thus better then Luke's narrower view, but JAcen, with his larger view of the force, fails to detect the danger of the borders on the station. He senses something and then goes back to bed. Luke figures it out right away.

 

you forget the most obvious possibility..

palps and vader did NOT tell Lumiya about vergere! why should they? lumiya says they are no true sith acc. to vegere. this palps and vader would never have told her, or are they stupid?

so Lumiya might have encountered vergere.. but only while she was free of the vong and before she returned to them pre-SBS. before vergere met jacen!!! and before she teached him. this then would make the vergere was a failed sith apprentice story true.. but lumiyas words about jacen being trained as a sith by vergere is not true then, because vergere had no such plans as of the meeting with lumiya, and she wouldn´t have told her. so this is where Lumiya lied to Jacen !!!!! about vergeres intentions and plans because she couldn´t have known.

or Nom Anor told her about vergere? he didn´t know all the stuff himself, so he couldn´t have told anyone.

but wait, what did you all forget?

right... THIS:


The mysterious being that is in contact with Lumiya, pretending to be Jacen from the future, pretending to know the story of darth vectivus, pretending to be a dark sith...

hello? right..

Lumiya might never have met Vergere! never have known about her! what if this flowwalker or vision or whatever told her about Vegere, about "true" sith and about all this vectivus stuff?

makes sense, eh?

well, if so, why did he tell her? to lure her he told her about sith and what it means to be sith, if this is true or not, we do not know, because he might be lying to get what he wants.
he pretends to be a sith so that lumiya trusts him.. he pretends the very Sith we know were not true to the true sith way, and instills a new philosophy in her, AND he makes her spread it!

if so.. we have several options:

GOOD Jacen from the future pretends to be a sith to lure Lumiya into doing what he tells her, so that he can change the past or alter something that he knows in the future, has happened tragically. maybe death of Luke or Tenel Ka?

or is it DARK Jacen, that has been redeemed and wants to change his own past?

or is it Dark Jacen, not redeemed, that wants to change the past to prevent some events he disliked, like the mentioned deaths.

...


however it really is, we do not know what is the truth here. Lumiya can´t get info from Palps and Vader or Nom Anor, they wouldn´t and couldn´t tell her. so if she got it from vergere we still do not know the truth!

Vergere might have lied to Lumiya to change her.. like she lied to Jacen to change him.. or she told the truth about the past, but that still doesn´t tell us her current status. she IS playing both sides, like the potentium. do not mark her as sith that easily! maybe she set lumiya up, like Jacen, one sith one jedi, to together one day bring union to sith and jedi order, and stop the warfare both orders continued for millennia.

whatever her reasons were, and whereever lumiya got that information from... it is twisted and not the complete truth, or part of it is not true only. for the first book of a series it is a BIG revelation, and I doubt the series will keep it that way, more will come and be added to this, book by book, change, alter, this revelation, make us doubt, and only in the end will we understand and see the full picture of how everybody, including the reader had been decieved...

they like to switch between dark, light, potentium stuff since the NJO to please both types of fans that prefer one or the other, keeping it vague, making ot clearer here and there, and later retcon it again etc. stay tuned^^

 

By all accounts (besides Lumiya) Vergere was a model Jedi before meeting the Vong.

I'm shocked to see dp4m discount Lumiya's claims, though.

 

The Darkside greatly rewards people who turn from the light and embrace the darkness, rewarding those already well trained in the Force with great power. The Dark Side Source book states this in there somewhere, in reference to the game mechanic where you can trade in jedi levels for sith levels.

That's why Dooku didn't take too long to become quite a powerful Sith.



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I think Lumiya's gonna buy the farm maybe 2/3rds of the way through the series.

Lumiya: Arise Darth chicken lover
Jacen: No...
Lumiya: What?
Jacen: Vectivus. <snap-hiss. Lumiya's form flops to the floor> Darth Vectivus.

I just have a feeling that this form that's never revealed is Jacen's flow-walked self, he'll right some wrongs and the series will end with Jacen killing Luke, doing what he'd strived to prevent.


I haven't got the book yet or read it so i may not have the same opinions afterwards, but at least from teh summaries I've read, this is what I think could happen


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On another note, in my opinion it's obvious that Vergere has training in other Force traditions. Her message on Zonoma Sekot was pure flow-walking, was it not? Again, I don't think I could bring myself to read rogue planet again (plus, i think it's in my loft), but I don't think it states it was Sekot taking her form.

 

they like to switch between dark, light, potentium stuff since the NJO to please both types of fans that prefer one or the other, keeping it vague, making ot clearer here and there, and later retcon it again etc. stay tuned^^




Actually, I feel I have to revise my opinion of Del Rey and Mr. Stover, perhaps they realized midway through the NJO that they didnt have any plan to do anything it was mostly a trainwreck, so they introduce said controversial theory, using a fan favorite writer who admittedly is very good at getting into characters heads.. divide the fanbase, generate intrest in books, make sure they keep thier contract past 2008

In short, this whole Potentium debate was never really a debate at all.. having been stated uneqivocably as false in the source it was introduced, and merely served as a thread to tie the stories together and introduce intresting plots for characters, make a certian character's fall much more believable than ROTS..

It was all a ploy by Del Rey.. and some people bought it hook line and sinker.

 

But Traitor was Stover's first Star Wars book, so he was pretty much unknown to the fanbase.

 

point..

However, with what we know now, it does seem Del Rey had a more coordinated plan for the future than they did the NJO

 

Harmony has a point about the time line of events. Verger disapeared long before lumiya came into the picture, and it was unlikely that she had any time to talk to her once she got back into the galaxy.

If lumiya is telling the truth about verger, i can see her learning of this in a few ways. First, what if lumiya was captured and verger got a hold of her in a way similar to how she got a hold of jacen. I wouldn't be suprised if palpatine mentioned some thing to vader about verger and then vader told lumiya for his own reason. I can see palpatine telling vader for two reasosn, first, anakin did go to zenoma sekot, so maybe verger came up in conversation, or maybe palpatine told vader to keep his eyes open for her since he wanted to kill her. I can see vader telling lumiya about verger and having her try to find verger so that he could build a group of force usere to take out the emporer. Maybe a dead sith spirit told her about verger. Hell maybe verger was in telepathic contact with lumiya when verger was in the galaxy.