Consider Your Source... (Betrayal Spoilers)

As of this moment I award Jacen Solo the prized metal for "Ultimately Duped by Arrogance". To be honest Im not that shocked because since Darth KFC warped his thoughts/personality so well, its really no hassle for the "Dark Lady of the Sith" to seduce him with his favorite dish "half baked philosophy with a dash of Truth".

 

As opposed to self-sacrificing someone else?

He took ten years to get to the power level we saw him at. Show me a source from 31 BBY where he's "quite powerful" as a Sith. And really, even by the Clone Wars he's not that powerful by Sith standards, because Yoda whips him.

Yes, how dare they intentionally make Star Wars books dramatic! What were they thinking?

 

When Vergere learned that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader, she said, "What a waste." Can't see her hanging around too long with that view.

 

Well if Wookieepedia is anything to go by, as oddly enough its the only place I've seen this mentioned, either that or I've just forgotten where it was mentioned in the books, it says on the Yuuzhan Vong article that they apparently had tried to seek out an alliance with any surviving Sith.

Just screams of Vergere influence now, no?

 

There was also the rumored incident with Lumiya and the Force sensative Vong.

 

Vergere wasn't with the Vong from HT to Rebirth. . .

 

Well ten years is a lot less time than his previous 70 or whatever, do we even know how seriously Sidious trained him?

I think you're also understating Yoda's ability, I'd be quite impressed if I could get whipped by Yoda and still be alive.

 

Isn't there some source which states that Lumiya made off with the Sith materials Palpatine had in his possessions after his and Vader's death on DS2?

Like, y'know, his Holocrons?

 

I believe Darth Vectivus existed, and possibly may have had self-control and been a moderately decent dude. Other than that, I don't believe a word Lumiya said. The logic just doesn't add up. The philosophy doesn't line up. And most of all, it would be a humongous, absurd, stupid, and unnecessary retcon and cop-out. No one can come up with an unusual view of the Force without being a Sith? Fifty years with the Yuuzhan Vong weren't enough? Heck, it's not that hard or unusual to come up with the theory that the dark side is internal and extreme utlitarianism is the way to go. Really, it's a great lie for Lumiya, but for it to be truth would be so absurd and unnecessary. I'd be very disappointed in the ruining of a perfectly good character in Vergere.

 

In short, this whole Potentium debate was never really a debate at all.. having been stated uneqivocably as false in the source it was introduced, and merely served as a thread to tie the stories together and introduce intresting plots for characters, make a certian character's fall much more believable than ROTS..

It was all a ploy by Del Rey.. and some people bought it hook line and sinker.

You?re kind of right in that the Potentuim, as it pertains to Traitor and beyond, was never a debate at all. Why? I?ll quote Stover from his thread in the author and artists forum:

I didn't create the Potentium. I didn't expand or expound upon the Potentium.

It has nothing to do with me, nor I with it.

Likewise the "Power of the Jedi Sourcebook."

Otherwise, thanks.

- Stover

I don?t see how anyone was being duped by any ?ploy?. The emphasis of Vergere?s teaching amounted to a person?s own inner beliefs, intentions, and actions as the most paramount factors in attempting to define dark/light abstracts.

Jacen came to believe in this truth, to understand that one needs to take responsibility for his own actions rather than relying on the crutch of an outside controlling presence as a means of voiding personal intent. The only question that remains now is whether or not Jacen?s turn, Jacen's actions, will eventually bring about a new harmony.

And to get back on topic in regards to Vergere, I think the thread author is precisely right. We may never know the whole truth about Vergere, but what can?t be denied is that she saved Jacen?s life, in turn giving him the power to end the Vong quest to conquer the GFFA. Perhpas it's especially important to note that she never set about on any Palpatine-like resolve to destroy key Jedi despite having ample opportunities to do so during the NJO.

 

In the NJO there is a brief conversation between Nom Anor and a Warmaster (maybe even Shimrra), the big cheese asks about the Sith and Nom Anor replies there are none left in the galaxy.
It's literally a two line conversation and I think it's in either Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial or Agents of Chaos II: Jedi Eclipse.

 

The more I think about it the more I do wonder how much of this they planned and how much they've decided to rework. I daresay we won't ever know the full story but I'd be curious to know whether they created Vergere before or after they decided to scrap the idea of the Yuuzhan Vong being the exiled Sith species.

It's starting to look as if Vergere effectively became a replacement so they could still have one of the Solo kids get kidnapped by the Yuuzhan Vong and end up a Sith. Had the Yuuzhan Vong still been the exiled Sith it would have been a simple explanation, without that plotline down the drain though in came the charcter of Vergere to try and insert some Sith connection to the Vong still.

Pity we'll probably never be able to find out what Matthew Stover's original intentions were when he was writing Traitor.

 

Or did she?

Vergere likely knew that she could -- at any given time -- very likely kill at least a handful of the tippy-top Masters of the current Jedi Order... but she'd never be able to get rid of all of them.

However, it's not too far-fetched for her to believe that Jacen might be able to accomplish just that... is it?

 

*Agrees with Dp4m*

Also, as far as "giving Jacen the power to end the Vong quest," he did so with dark side powers. She was helping him become a Sith Lord. The way Jacen killed Onimi was an act of the dark side.

 

I'm not so sure about that. What makes Jacen's actions against Onimi dark?

 

That one scene in TUF is rather interesting. Jacen reaches a point of perfect power and understanding of the Force, likely the light side. it then says that he will always be trying to return to that point. It sounds as though his later 5 year trip was meant to help in that quest, and that his actions during and after that begin to be dark, while he seeks to regain that power and understanding. When the Dark Side tempts him with more knowledge and power, he is drawn in without realizing it, like Kun.

 

He murders Onimi with the Force. It's no different than Force-lightning... which he was also throwing around in that series.

 

Downhill spiral I guess. At that point Jacen probably was fully representative of everything Vergere and the Potentium had said: he was both light and dark. He was a Jedi who called on the dark side, but he hadn't been corrupted yet, so was still deep in the light.

If, as it now seems to be, the truth is the dark side truly does corrupt the longer it's been the further he's fallen into darkness, the further he is from the light, so the further he is away from true balance, making it impossible for him to ever again reach the 'perfect state' he was meant to have been in in TUF.

 

He murders Onimi with the Force. It's no different than Force-lightning... which he was also throwing around in that series.

I?ve never really bought into the Special Dark Side Power idea that seems lifted from a video game. Luke?s use of the Force to choke a few Gamorrean guards didn?t result in his becoming a Sith Lord. He merely removed an obstacle blocking his way, much like Jacen did with Onimi. Jacen did what he did in Betrayal because he made a decision to, not because he previously refused to kill Onimi in an approved Good Guy fashion. C'mon, you really think that decapitating someone with a lightsaber makes a decision to kill more just?

 

Jacen is not (yet) a Sith. He has just agreed to learn their POV of the Force, the same as he has every other POV.

 

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

 

< unless you turn away from it like Luke, Anakin, and a half dozen others did >

 

You're forgetting DE, karrde. Luke turned away fromt he Dark Side, then he tried to conquer it from within, and in his arrogance and underestimation, almost lost himself. Those events left scars that he carries to this day.

 

From the Allston interview on the OS:

" also wanted to suggest some points in common between Jedi and Sith philosophy, to better express their comparisons and contrasts. For example, if the extreme version of Sith philosophy involves destructive rage, destructive surrender to passion, then the extreme version of Jedi philosophy would be aloofness, emotionlessness, a tendency to become vested in law above compassion, that sort of thing... all with the notion that this was one of the errors made by the Jedi Council during the era of the prequels. I wanted to suggest that any philosophy taken to extremes is destructive, even a philosophy that is theoretically heroic and altruistic, like the Jedi code."

"As for the question of whether a Jedi could embrace some aspects of the Sith philosophy and remain good -- well, I suspect that the answer is yes, as long as it's "aspects" and not the whole package."

The lines from TR calling Jacen the "living Jedi dream" and DN calling him a "very good Jedi" are starting to make more sense, aren't they? If anything Jacen is more of a Jedi than a Sith...