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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Considering the 'Clone Mystery' and the Jedi in AOTC...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AllyoftheForce, Jun 12, 2016.

  1. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Taking the PT by itself, and discarding the EU and TCW, do you guys think the Jedi handled the issue of the 'clone mystery' ineptly? Based on the information they gathered during their investigation in AOTC, it seemed VERY possible that something sinister was going on, and the Jedi appeared aware of this. Yet, they didn't do much about it. I guess you could see their decision to keep a closer eye on the senate as how they dealt with the matter, since the senate was most likely to blame if there's any deviancy occurring, but was that really enough considering how HIGHLY questionable their evidence was?

    Maybe it was? Maybe not? Maybe there was nothing more they could've done?

    Let me know how you look at the situation.
     
  2. Straudenbecker

    Straudenbecker Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2015
    The Jedi did not really have a choice, their backs were to the wall. The Droid Army was huge, and the Republic did not have a standing army. They ignored the evidence during AOTC cause the clones were an accessibility that the Jedi and Republic needed right away. There is a large amount of time between AOTC and ROTS, but the Jedi were getting nowhere in their investigation, so they turned to Anakin to spy on the Chancellor. Darth Sidious was powerful in clouding the minds around him. So there were skeptics on the Jedi Council about what the Count told Obi-Wan. During this time the Jedi had to have been put in a more military role as sending Jedi to defend planets, this action takes away personal from investigations and other Jedi duties. When we see ROTS, we see that the Droid armies are in good to great positions. This shows a lack of coordination from the Republic side of the war, and more Jedi are sent out which weakened their holdings. The bottom line is the Jedi doubted so much of the information they had gathered and received, that they had turned a blind eye to what was really happening and by the time they realized it, it was too late. The Jedi could have done more, but we're doubtful that a Sith could become more powerful than them and they were preoccupied with the war.
     
  3. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Thanks for the response! Didn't really contemplate that the Jedi were being spread too thin to devote any time to furthering the investigation. Then again, wouldn't it have been of UTMOST IMPORTANCE to figure out whether an enemy was trying to sabotage them or not?

    I guess it's either do that, or lose the war, so maybe not.
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How would they do that? And what exactly is left to investigate? There's no evidence to pick up and trace.
     
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  5. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    If I was on the Jedi Council I would start asking, then demanding for non Clone Troops with training under Jedi supervision. If Palpatine sed no then I would know something was up.
     
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  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Why not demand to end the war, while you're at it?
     
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  7. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Yea, it's not the Jedi's place to make political decisions. That's not their arena.

    And you are right about there being no more leads to follow up on, Alexrd. Now that I've thought about it, the only way they could've investigated further was if they interrogated Jango, but Mace sort of got in the way of that. As far as finding out more information, there wasn't anything left they could do.

    That wasn't the main concern of this thread though. I was wondering if the Jedi should've been able to take more precautionary measures to ensure that if a threat was existent, they would be protected. I was skeptical of the Jedi's competence at first, but after some extra pondering, my own conclusions lead me to believe that the answer is no; their arrogance, among other factors, prevented them from taking any available measures, and the Jedi aren't grossly inept. Although, maybe there's something I'm missing here, or misinterpreting.
     
  8. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    why would you do that ?
    what would you expect to happen to the clones ? If the Jedi are saying they don't trust the clones you'll have 2 armies in the Republic who don't trust each other , that would be really divisive .
    wouldn't it make more sense to work with the clones and see what they're like ?

    .
     
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  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Sorry, the idea that the Jedi have NO leads or nothing to investigate is false.
    They have loads of leads and possible avenues of investigation.

    1) They know that their archives have been tampered with so they can try and find out if they can learn when the Kamino file was deleted and by who. In some computers archives it is not as simple as just deleting a file. Often a record is left of the file, when it was removed etc.

    2) Check the dates, when did Sifo-Dyas and when were the army ordered? If they can 100% verify that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order, they KNOW that the army was ordered under a false name.

    3) Go to Kamino and show them a picture of Sifo-Dyas and Dooku.
    If the Kamino people Id Sifo-Dyas as the one who ordered the army, then they at least know that.
    If they Id Dooku as "Sifo-Dyas" then that is crucial info.
    If they say that "Sifo-Dyas" was someone else then they that is still good info.
    And if they say that they never met "Sifo-Dyas" and that "Sifo-Dyas" never showed his face, that is also important info. Because why would the real Sifo-Dyas hide his face when placing the order when he gave his name? That makes no sense.
    So the Jedi have plenty of means to find out more about who actually ordered the army.

    4) Payment of the army. We are told that the Kamino people care about money so how was this army paid for? Did "Sifo-Dyas" come with a big bag of cash? Was it paid through some bank?
    If so, they could try and trace the money.

    5) They have lots of question to ask the Kamino people. Did anyone else from the republic ever come and check on their progress? Were they ever contacted by someone?
    Were they given a name of someone to contact in case of problems or when the army was ready?
    Did "Sifo-Dyas" give any kind of special instructions?

    6) About Jango. They can ask the Kamino when and how often Jango left Kamino. They did keep him there after all. If the only time he left was the time he went to Coruscant to kill Padme, that is interesting.

    Bottom line, the Jedi has lots of stuff to investigate.
    But the plot needs them to be morons, so they ignore it all.


    [/QUOTE]

    They had plenty of options.
    Doing some digging, see above, and try to find evidence that the clone army was ordered under a false name.
    They can reach out to some senators that they trust and share their knowledge and perhaps they can get some help with their investigations.
    If they conclude that the clone army was ordered under a false name they know that someone is playing them and probably the senate, for fools. To prepare, they can move some of their forces off Coruscant, which makes them less vulnerable. They can pretend that some Jedi "died" and have them hide under false names.
    And try to make some sort of plan if it turns out that the clone army is not one their side.

    In RotS they talk about removing Palpatine from office and disbanding the senate.
    But at no point do they consider the big clone army that obeys every order that Palpatine gives.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  10. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Samuel Vimes

    you have to remember that the Sith are behind this plot so they'll have done things to hide the truth and will continue to do so .
    Syfo Dyas may have been a changeling who the Kaminoans met .
    the money trail is never easy to follow and Sidious and Dooku have tremendous powers in the senate and the banks , bribery works quite well too to get greedy people to say things enough to keep the trail from ever being truly solved etc.
    Some jedi may have been very suspicious but that works for the sith too - sowing paranoia and doubt etc.

    it could be an interesting story but the jedi investigation would've happened between the movies , by the time we get to ROTS they have fought with the clones for 3 years , so a level of great trust has developed .
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It wasn't deleted. It was covered up to look like it wasn't there, but there was still evidence that it was there. The name was removed. And Jocasta did investigate, but probably couldn't confirm that Dooku did it.

    They did that and couldn't verify the date of his death and the date of the order were too far apart. They were close together.

    Sifo-Dyas could have placed the order via a communique because he was unable to present the message himself. That leaves Tyranus and we know that he wore a hood to cover his face.

    Dooku would make sure that the money was untraceable.

    That was answered when Obi-wan visited Kamino and was told that they were to expect a Jedi to come and inspect their progress.

    Doubtful. He would have other bounties to take.

    Or they did investigate and came up with bupkis.

    Or they did do that and evidence suggests that Sifo-Dyas did do it on his own. Hell, Dooku just raised doubt that the Senate could be trustworthy.

    Because they don't believe it is a threat until they know who Darth Sidious is and that is why they go after him before he can do anything. They don't even know about the biochip which compels them to obey orders and before you say that isn't canon, Lucas was the one who suggested its inclusion in TCW.
     
  12. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016

    Does this suddenly preclude all further investigation?
     
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  13. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Remember guys, we're not taking the EU or TCW into account, I'm looking to see if the films can stand by themselves.

    You made some good points, Vimes, most of which hadn't dawned on me for some reason. I totally agree that the Jedi could've done more to figure out if Sifo-Dyas really ordered the clones. Going to Kamino with pictures and interviewing the Kaminoans, as well as checking the dates of the clone order and Sifo-Dyas' death were certainly options they could've chosen if they wanted to investigate further. However, who's to say that Yoda didn't do any of this off screen and wound up with little to no questionable evidence? Knowing how wise Yoda is, he'd probably address the council if there was any loose ends to tie up, and since he didn't, in all likelihood he did do some digging on his trip to Kamino to get answers. There's nothing to deny that he didn't, so I'm going with that.

    Or, if that's not good enough, there's the alternative answer: The Jedi were too arrogant to have their suspicions be strong enough to take action in such a way. In their minds, it was damn near impossible for a Sith to sneak past them, and they therefore chose to believe that they were in control no matter if that might not have really been true.

    Now, I don't think the Jedi could've interviewed senators. The corruption in the senate made it unlikely that they'd get answers that weren't variations of the truth, instead of the full truth, or just flat out lies. Neither could they have found a record of the deleted Kamino file, or trace money to the Sith. The Sith weren't idiots, their tracks were certainly concealed and they would never leave trails like that. The Jedi knew that if there was something malicious under the surface of the clone army's origins, whoever was behind the cover up was cunning, and they wouldn't be able to unveil a trace that was accidently left open because the culprit(s) involved is(are) smart enough not to leave one.

    Here's another thing the Jedi wouldn't be able to do: protect themselves from the Clones, even if they did find the truth. The Clone War had put the Jedi in an inescapable situation where they had no choice but to accept the Clones' presence. They had enough information to come to the conclusion that if they moved to rid of the Clones in any way, such as bring their evidence to the senate and demand for a volunteer army to begin replacing the current one, there was a pretty good chance that the Clones would've retaliated in violence once their demand was met, since their potential enemy in the senate would not sit idly by while their plan was being foiled. That's a battle they couldn't win (due to the Clones dwarfing the Jedi in numbers) nor a risk they could take. Such a scenario would plunge the galaxy into mayhem, so all they could do was try to use the Clones to their advantage and pray, despite of evidence telling otherwise, that they were friendly. Basically, once the Clone Wars began, their unfortunate fate was sealed.

    One more point: Even if some Jedi acted as spies of sorts by hiding their true identities and keeping an eye on the clones, they'd probably still be smoked out. The Clones were highly tactical, programmed and bred from birth to fight wars, it's likely that they'd catch onto the Jedi's stratagies eventually.

    If you have a rebuttal, I'd be happy to hear it. It's pretty important to know whether the Jedi were incompetent doofuses or not, and I very well could be wrong. Again, there may be something I'm missing or misinterpreting.
     
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  14. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016

    Just to clarify, it wasn't a near guarantee that they would, or anything like that, but the risk was still there, and they couldn't afford to take it, especially since if they did actually retaliate, the army that was supposed to be fighting the Separatists would shift their focus to another group, which would potentially cost the Republic the war.
     
  15. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    no , see the rest of my post .

    .
     
  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    In case you missed it, the idea I was responding to was that the Jedi have NO LEADS. Or that the Jedi have NO REASON to investigate further.
    Both of those are false.
    The Jedi have ample reason to investigate further and also they have several leads to pursue.

    Whether or not they did and what they found out, if anything is unknown since the films didn't bother to show or imply that the Jedi did anything.

    What you wrote is just speculation. It is also possible that the Sith didn't bother to hide their tracks because the Jedi are morons and they know it.

    As for what the Sith did. I really doubt that the Sith planned for all the stuff that happened in AotC.
    For ex, I don't think the Sith wanted the Jedi to find Kamino when they did, nor that they would talk to Jango and hear about Tyrannus or learn about the date mismatch etc.
    That was all info that the Sith would have preferred for the Jedi to NOT know as that would make it easier for them to not question the clone army.

    People also like to bring up various EU bits.
    But since that isn't IN the films and in some cases contradict the films, all this does is to show how badly this plot is told in the films.
    If the idea was that people seeing RotS should be aware of all this EU stuff, then you have a big plot hole.

    AotC very much leaves the audience with the impression that the Jedi DON'T believe that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army. And RotS doesn't adress this at all.

    So to the audience that have just watched the films, ie most of them. They would still be working with the idea that the Jedi mindset in unchanged from AotC. So they have a clone army, ordered under a false name by persons unknown. And yet they never suspect it and when the clones turn on them, the tragedy is undercut by the Jedi coming across as clueless dimwits that didn't see this coming despite all the warnings they had.
    It also undercuts Palpatine's plan as he didn't defeat a cunning opponent, he outwitted a bunch of retards.

    Lastly, this would not take much time to show.
    In the last scenes, have Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan talk a little about who they think ordered the army and the Jango-Dooku connection and what that could imply. Simply have them talk it through briefly and say that they will investigate this further.

    Then in RotS they can talk a little about what they have found out. They have traced the money to the senate, possibly someone is Palpatine's office. That could explain why they are a bit dubious when it comes to Palpatine and one reason they give to Anakin when he is told to spy on Palpatine, is to try and find out who in Palpatine's inner circle is behind the army or find solid evidence that they can use. If they are convinced that someone in the senate is behind the army, then they have less reason to think the army could turn on them.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  17. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    well they're up against a formidable opponent , who has considerable powers , I think we as the audience know this , so its logical to assume that any investigation would be matching wits with the Sith . And its not hard to imagine the various ways the Sith would use to hamper or cover-up the conspiracy , so I don't agree that the Jedi were morons , we are after all in a privilleged position , we see things they don't .

    they can investigate but as I say - what would they actually find ?
     
  18. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    There's a reason that in the same film there's time taken to illustrate that the Jedi can be arrogant and can be fooled. They are even told from Dooku himself the reality of it. Obi-Wan rejects it at first but, as the lead investigator who went to Kamino himself, he starts to doubt his rejection and wonders aloud if Dooku was actually right. Yet the Jedi reject this. Yoda's response personifies the Jedi attitude: no, Dooku's wrong, because he's a liar and is no longer an honorable Jedi.

    Like Yoda realized in the ROTS novel, the Jedi were stuck in the past and preparing for the last war, not the next one. They were outfoxed and outgunned. They were an inflexible bunch that had trouble accommodating to new things and new situations. This is one of the points of the prequel trilogy -- it's a tragedy, and tragedies are caused by characters whose own flaws betray their virtues. Some fans simply refuse to see the Jedi in any light other than pure good, but I think this is erroneous.

    Anyway, one of my favorite parts of the EU was that Luke tried to establish a more natural, more in-touch Jedi Order after ROTJ. One can only hope that in the ST he succeeds like he sort of did in the EU, though what seems to have happened prior to TFA makes one wonder.
     
  19. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016

    #1. - Most of those leads you mentioned were probably covered by Yoda during his trip to Kamino, and he likely walked away with information that calmed his concerns, since he never mentions the investigation again. It would go against Yoda's character to leave a single stone unturned. Or, if that explanation doesn't suffice, you could go with the alternative explanation that I mentioned before: Arrogance lessened the Jedi's suspicions, which stopped them from taking assertive action. There was no way that, from the Jedi's point of view, 'the Almighty Jedi!' could be ambushed, it was virtually impossible for such a thing to happen in their eyes. This explanation, if you choose to look at it this way, would also apply to #2 and #4, as well

    #2. - They actually sort of do imply the Jedi investigate. See above, and earlier posts.

    #3. - Nonsense. The Jedi had maintained peace and justice in the galaxy for a thousand generations, that doesn't happen without the use of wit. So, with this in mind, of course the Sith would bring their A game and cover their tracks.

    #4. - There's a decent chance that Yoda found out that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clones, and we all know that Jedi thought other Jedi were practically incapable of committing unsavory deeds, as seen during the scene in Palpatine's office at the beginning of AOTC. "You know, m'lady, that Count Dooku was once a Jedi. he couldn't assassinate anyone. it's not in his character." - Mace Windu. Also, see #1.

    #5 - The Jedi had been fighting a war with these Clones for 3 whole years in which they built a strong trust and devotion in one another. Anakin wanting to save the Clone under attack at the beginning in Ep. 3 and the relationship between Commander Cody and Obi-Wan makes this evident. Why would the Jedi not act surprised if this is true?

    And, I'll re-iterate, even if the Jedi found out a Sith was behind the creation of he Clones, they'd A. not be able to remove the Clones from the battlefield and B. have very few battle strategies to chose from if you know what ever hit the fan, battle strategies that would not match the methodical skills of the Clones. From what the Jedi could gather, "someone" in the Senate, and/or Palpatine, were possibly involved with the Clones' creation, so if the Jedi, for example, demanded for a new, volunteer army to gradually replace the Clone Army, this "someone", if they did in fact exist and were a threat, would in all probability fetch the Clones on them for throwing a wrench in their plan, which is something the Jedi couldn't risk. Not only would they not survive such a scenario, mostly due to the Clones' sheer numbers, war efforts would fall to the wayside and make the Republic vulnerable if this "someone" did not also have control of the Seperatists, which the Jedi had no way of being sure of. All the Jedi could do was hope for the best.
     
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  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    First, Yoda went to Kamino, gathered up the clone army and went to Geonosis and arrived there, what a couple of hours after Mace and co, who went straight there.
    So Yoda did not have time to do much in the way of investigating on Kamino.
    Second, what you are doing is inventing stuff to shore up weaknesses in the movies writing.
    Third, if Yoda had found out something that cast some light on the clone army, then it should have been IN the movie. See more below.
    Fourth, not in Yoda's character? Let's see. In AotC he learns that their archive have been tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done. Does Yoda investigate this? Nope he goes away and meditates on it and after that, this mystery is promptly forgotten.

    The film implies no such thing and the Jedi never mention many of the mysteries they should be aware of. Like the Jango-Dooku connection. They never mention that.
    After Obi-Wan has made his report from Kamino, the question of who ordered the clone army is forgotten by all the Jedi.

    Sadly, to me, the films show the Jedi be rather dimwitted time and time again.
    In TPM the JC learn that the TF have in effect declared war on the republic by attacking Naboo. And they know that the senate has shown itself unable to act. Plus the TF has a big army while the republic has none. On top of that, it seems like their worst enemy, the sith are back.
    So what do they do with this major crisis? Send one Master and one Apprentice to solve the whole problem.
    They had Jedi to spare in TPM but did they use any of them? Nope.

    At the end of the film, the JC is convinced that Anakin is the chose one but they are also very worried about him. So do they give him the best possible training? Nope, they give him to a newly minted Jedi Knight that has never had an apprentice before. Real smart that.

    Between TPM and AotC, did the Jedi investigate the Naboo crisis and the TF's connection to the Sith?
    Not answered.

    In AotC, the Jedi frankly display moronic tactics on Geonosis by jumping down into an enclosed arena and charging a vastly superior force. And they got decimated thanks to their stupidity.

    Yoda says that they must stop Dooku from leaving. And Yoda knows where Dooku is and goes from the command post to there. Did he bring any soldiers to stop Dooku's ship from leaving? Nope.
    Did he tell the republic ships in orbit to monitor that part of the planet and stop any ship trying to leave? Nope.

    What you do here is introduce a plot hole.
    Earlier in AotC, we hear Obi-Wan tell Mace and Yoda that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered. Meaning he couldn't have done it. His statement is never questioned or proven wrong. By assuming that Yoda learned something that totally disproves that but this wasn't shown in the film, now you have a plot hole. A vital piece of the story is missing.

    IF Lucas wanted to establish that Yoda has found evidence that disproves what Obi-Wan said, then that should be IN the movie. This is how movies or stories work, if you establish something and then want to change that, then you need to actually have change that IN the story. Not change it quietly and then have everyone act differently without explanation.

    But even if we assume Lucas intended for that, why even have Obi-Wan say what he said? Why set up the idea that the clone army was ordered under a false name and the Jedi know it only to later contradict it? Serves no point.
    Better then to never have Obi-Wan say anything about Sifo-Dyas being dead before the army was ordered.

    Since they know that the clones can not choose to be loyal, they can only follow orders.
    If the clones were given an order to kill every Jedi, they would do so without hesitation.
    If the Jedi still don't know who ordered the clone army but they know that it was ordered under a false name. They should be highly suspicious towards them.

    [/QUOTE]

    Consider, the clone army is 1,2 million clones. That number is very, very small to wage a war on a galactic scale. Growing more clones would take time, as Taun We said.
    About ten years with growth acc.

    So do the republic only have these 1,2 million clones?
    If yes then how can they hope to stand against the vast number of droids the seps has?

    If no, does some of the various republic worlds have their own armies?
    If so then the republic army could then be supplemented by these regular forces.
    The Jedi could even suggest this as they could argue, correctly, that the clone army by itself is too small to fight this war by themselves.
    This would not take time as those forces already exist. And if Palpatine tries to stop it, he will look very suspicious and it would seem he is trying to sabotage his own side.
    Even if any other forces don't exist, that seems unlikely, the Jedi could still suggest regular soldiers to supplement the clones by the same logic, the clones are vastly outnumbered by the droid army.

    So the Jedi did have options and it would have been very smart to reach out to some senators they feel they trust. Like say Bail Organa and show him what they know. If they tell him that the clone army was ordered under a false name and ask for his help, why would he not give it?
    He, in turn, could reach out to senators he trust and they could slowly build an alliance.

    In the show Babylon 5, the heroes suspect that the president has been assassinated and the vice president was involved. So a coup essentially. But they don't immediately rebel, they do their job but reach out to those they trust and slowly builds an alliance and starts to make plans for what to do if they are correct. Because they know that alone, they have no chance.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Because they have other priorities to tend to with the realization that war is about to break out and then they concentrate on dealing with the end of the war over the clones.

    But they cannot send them out due to needing approval from the Senate. We've been over this. The Council will not violate the rules in that manner. Not when the Senate is in turmoil.

    It wouldn't have mattered who trained him. As long as he was around Palpatine, no Jedi would have succeeded. Even the best Jedi Master in Yoda lost Dooku to the dark side.

    There were Jedi already in the arena floor itself before the Droid Army made itself known. That's how Anakin and Obi-wan were given Lightsabers. Mace is the only one shown to be diving into the arena floor and that's after being attacked.

    He did bring troops, but as before, they were killed.

    He probably did but they still got away. Just like the Alliance managed to get past an Imperial blockade at Hoth.

    The point is to tell the audience that the Clonetroopers were made by the Sith. The Jedi cannot disprove who created the army and at this point, when the war begins, there's nothing to do. The Chancellor has final say over the Clone Army and not the Jedi. They cannot stop the war on account of this.

    The first batch took ten years to create and make ready. The second batch took five years.

    LAMA SU: "We take great pride in our combat education and training programs. This group was created about five years ago."

    And yes, local resistance assisted with the fighting.

    Two things.

    1. Perhaps they did tell the Senate and they were ignored. TCW doesn't specify one way or another.

    2. Yoda would have to explain why they didn't know and he says that they might give fuel to use against them. They're not certain who to trust.
     
  22. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Yoda had ample time to do more investigating after AOTC.
     
  23. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    But by all the available evidence, he didn't as nothing new is learnt about the clone army until they kill all the Jedi. In R.O.T.S., all of the previous questions or aspects that could have been investigated are not brought up but instead everything happens as if those concerns had never existed.
     
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  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    In case you missed it, the post I was responding to argued that Yoda did tons of investigating IN AotC.
    That he went and picked up the clones that were ready and while doing that, he also managed to find solid evidence that Sifo-Dyas totally ordered the clone army, not doubt about that.

    My response is that Yoda didn't have time to do that at this time. What he did after AotC, if anything, is unknown since RotS totally ignore this whole plot.
    Plus that it is really bad writing to do this. Obi-Wan establishes one thing, which is never questioned or disproven. So to have it disproven off-screen but never mentioned or alluded to is just head scratching.
    Plus what is the point of Obi-Wan establishing one thing only for it to be contradicted off-screen but never mentioned. Better then to not have him say anything if you are just going to ignore what he says.

    This and many other threads show that this plot point was not written well.
    People try to justify it by making stuff up or by referencing non-movie sources.
    If you have to do this to this extent, then it shows that this plot and the film can't stand on it's own and doesn't work.

    This plot was changed late in the making of AotC but Lucas did have plans to say more about in RotS but that didn't happen. And a complex entrapment plot like this isn't something that should be written on the fly. And it shows.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    But it is disproved in the film when we are told that a man named Tyranus hired Jango and we learn that Tyranus is Dooku. We the audience know something that the Jedi don't know, which is that the Sith did create the Clone Army. The Jedi don't investigate further because they're focused on winning the war. Lucas didn't ignore it by his own admission.

    "I was always worried in Episode II that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back they mention the fact that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are the same person and that Darth Tyranus is the one that started the clones, so if your paying attention it's very easy to figure out what’s going to happen to the clones, if they will be the ones that will betray everybody. Tough to put in things like that without giving everything away."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    And ROTS does confirm it when Palpatine, revealed as Sidious, orders the death of the Jedi through "Order 66".

    It was the fan base who made it more than it was.
     
    Ezon Pin likes this.