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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Considering the 'Clone Mystery' and the Jedi in AOTC...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AllyoftheForce, Jun 12, 2016.

  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That does not follow. You act as if any investigation must necessarily lead to something which would cause the Republic to no longer be relying on the clones in ROTS. As the example of the old (pre-Disney) EU demonstrates, his investigation could easily lead to discovering evidence indicating Sifo-Dyas' involvement, a result which would lean in the other direction.
     
  2. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Yours is the post not following; we don't know whether or not he did anything else from what we see in the films; did he get satisfactory answers to the questions they had? What appears in the films instead is that all doubts went straight out the window and were forgotten completely, because nothing that would confirm or allay any concerns about the clone army appears in either film after the time those concerns are mentioned.
     
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  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    You said he didn't; now you're saying we don't know. Your story appears to be changing.

    That's hardly something that "appears in the films". It's more like fanfiction.

    Yet something that would allay concerns about the clone army could still have happened in the interim. The aforementioned situation of "we don't know" can go either way. The bottom line is that there is a substantial time gap between the two films in question and various things could have happened during that interval. The lack of specifics does not somehow favor one alternative over the other. Ambiguity can hardly be repackaged as certainty.
     
  4. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    We don't know anything about what he may or may not have done, but, because the Jedi know nothing new about the circumstances behind the clone army, the simplest answer is that he didn't investigate any more into things for whatever reason (a big one being: there's a war on now). Your argument is a nit-pick in the fact that any further investigation or the results thereof go unmentioned in the following film; as Samuel Vimes said, R.O.T.S. completely ignores this plot, and it is a point which would lead the Jedi discovering something fishy about the galactic situation.

    The concerns are never raised after they were first mentioned which happened before Obi-wan went to arrest Jango Fett; ergo, it seems they were overtaken by other things and left by the wayside; there is nothing showing what may or may not have addressed them. It does not take making up 'fan-fiction' in order to notice this, and it is very dishonest (particularly from somebody who had previously referred to the E.U.) to claim that this observation is making stuff up outside the film. They are conspicuous by their absence, it appears that they have been forgotten about.

    Which is never shown. The mere fact that the Jedi use the clones doesn't mean squat; they may be satisfied with their performance, it may be expedient (both immediately, given the situation in A.O.T.C. on Geonosis, and also the fact that they now have this ready-made army at their disposal), they may do so because the Republic makes them, whatever; all reasons for which no searching outside the films is needed. Fact is, the suspicious origins of the clones are not addressed further. There are multiple pieces of information that make the army to be not what it seems.

    Again, there is nothing to show any closure for their concerns or doubts; it is simply not mentioned. You can't claim that anything happened between the films to answer the questions as nothing is shown or mentioned, and by saying that something "could have happened" in the gap to do whatever, you are implicitly relying on made-up stuff. What happens is not really ambiguity, it's incompleteness.
     
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  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Are you talking to me?
    If so, what is disproven in the film?

    That Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army?
    That was pretty much disproven when Obi-Wan said that Sifo-Dyas had been killed before the clone army was ordered.
    Dooku being Tyrannus just makes even more obvious.

    Second, the fan base wasn't the ones who complicated matters, you had various EU come in and basically say that "No, Sifo-Dyas really did order the Clone Army." But they would often stop short of making it 100% clear that he did.

    I have argued many times that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army and time and again I have been hit over the head with some EU that says he did.
    So the story IN the film was quite simple, Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with the clone army, he was just a convenient alias that Dooku used when he ordered the clone army.
    But then the EU decided to muddy the waters by going "Well Obi-Wan was wrong about Sifo-Dyas death and he was involved somehow for some reason."
    So don't blame the fans, blame the EU.

    Possibly the fans thought, "Surely the Jedi won't be as stupid to use this obvious Sith army, there must be something more to this." So they invented stuff to make the Jedi seem less moronic.

    Lastly, that Lucas wanted to make it clear to the audience who were behind the clones. Ok but the problem is that he revealed too much to the Jedi as well and the only thing the Jedi don't know is that Dooku is Tyrannus but they could suspect it. So if it is clear to the audience that the sith are behind this, the Jedi know enough to suspect the same thing. Which makes their lack of care with regards to the clones and the total lack of investigation, makes them come across as dimwits.
    That they fought a war is no excuse.
    This is simply poor writing and planing on Lucas part.
    Unless he wanted the Jedi to look like clueless idiots, in which case the writing works.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    This is only your assumption. You have no way to know this.

    In no way is that the "simplest" answer, other than in the sense that it is a necessary yet false simplicity used to prop up your stance. We are shown outright in the PT that the Jedi are actively trying to find Sidious and that investigation is part of their mandate. To assume, for no good reason, that they simply stop investigating the situation ( in essential contradiction of what is said in ROTS ) constitutes nonsensical special pleading.

    Utterly ridiculous. We see in both the films and TCW that Yoda had sufficient free time to do various things and even go on solo missions. A lot can happen in three years.

    Again, this is only your assumption, and it denigrates the capabilities of Palpatine. This is just more of the artifical simplicity imposed on the situation in order to fallaciously indict the Jedi: the Jedi would have discovered damning evidence if only they had tried. Palpatine would not, by his very nature, have made the situation that simple for them.

    The fanfiction is you telling us what they're thinking.

    Nor is the alternative shown. Thus it is fallacy to act as if you can derive a binding conclusion from the act of not showing things.

    What are these pieces of information that "make the army to be" things? Do you mean like information that indicates Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, making the army to be an army ordered by a Jedi?

    Then by the same token, you can't claim that anything didn't happen between the films to answer the questions. Absehce of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    Same thing. The point is that you seem to think the ambiguity, somehow, magically only supports your position, merely by virtue of the fact that you want it to be the case. That's not in the nature of ambiguity ( even when it's going by the alias "incompleteness" ).

    Still just something you made up, without any proof in the films.

    Nope. That was never established in the films, it was just what some people wanted to believe. At best it was only a possibility at the time.
     
  7. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Samuel Vimes
    I'm sorry , I really don't see how that makes sense , what senator is behind this ? it just raises more questions .

    From a storyteller / viewer perspective any investigation will be inconclusive , so it won't help the narrative .

    Now - having said that , yes there is mystery surrounding the ordering of the clone army from the jedi's pov , now just because there's a mystery doesn't mean the jedi should immediately jump to the conclusion that the clones will turn on them , it could point in any number of directions .
    But , yes , we as the audience need to know that the Jedi trust the clones , and the reason they trust them is quite clear from the films , and its a much better reason than any investigation or testimony from witnesses would provide , it's this :

    the Jedi have spent 3 years living , fighting and dying with these soldiers , that kind of bond creates a very great trust . These clones are not robotic or cold , they have emotions , they're loyal to the Republic and their jedi brothers-in-arms , they've lost a lot of clone lives fighting against Dooku and his forces .

    People fighting alongside one another for years creates a very strong bond , this doesn't make the jedi retards as you keep saying , it's entirely natural and believable that they would trust them .

    You have to appreciate that you've been given a privilleged view of the story , you know the future events , but you also need to see it from the characters' pov 'in-universe' as well if you're going to judge their actions .

    And this is the beauty of Sid's scheme , it's a long-con , a very long-con !


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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    No, I'm talking to hear myself talk. :rolleyes:

    The end of the film when Dooku is revealed as Tyranus and is working with Darth Sidious, and thus the one who ordered the Clone Army using Sifo-Dyas name.

    Right, we know that. The thing is that the Jedi cannot find proof that he didn't do it. The Council just knows that none of them gave him permission to do it. They cannot question him as he is dead.

    Because they were honoring what Lucas said, which was that the Sith did it. "The Clone Wars", which is canon over "Labyrinth Of Evil", has Sifo-Dyas killed by Dooku via the Pykes and used his name, according to Silman. Dooku keeps confusing the Jedi by saying that he helped him.

    But they have no reason to suspect that he was Tyranus. For all they know, Tyranus is an individual who was a good enough person who did help Sifo-Dyas. But they have nothing to identify him with. No way of finding him. Once Dooku is outed by Minister Lom, then they know that he is Tyranus. But not at the end of AOTC. At that point they believe that Dooku was unaware of the Clone Army, that perhaps Sifo-Dyas erased Kamino and that he had help from a man named Tyranus.

    No, it was more that the Jedi were distracted by the war and having trouble finding proof of anything.

    Right. It could mean that Sifo-Dyas believed that the Council would never help him to do what was necessary. So he went outside of official channels and had the Clone Army created to help the Jedi and the Republic. But was killed before on his mission to Felucia, though the man named Tyranus finished the job by hiring Jango Fett. That's what the Jedi think until Sifo-Dyas ship and Lightsaber are found. But before then, there is no immediate reason to conclude that the Clone Army was created for shady purposes.
     
  9. DarthCricketer

    DarthCricketer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2016
    No, nothing is shown in the films that the Jedi have been able to, or have attempted to find out anything else about the origins of the clone army after the point where Obi-wan goes to arrest Jango. What part of this is difficult to understand?

    Investigating the possibility of a Sith in the Senate and the circumstances of the clone army are two different things, although they would both lead to discoveries that could at least increase the Jedi's suspicion about what's going on. Nothing more is seen or heard of this investigation into the origins of the clone army; to assume that they stopped investigating requires nothing outside the films, they can only do so much investigating whilst in battle, and nothing is shown that it ever re-started; to assume otherwise requires making stuff up.

    In the films, Yoda manages to occupy himself with various things that have nothing to do with investigating the clone army, and many of which have to do with the war. And referring to T.C.W. is an invalid argument, because they are not the films; for somebody who accuses his opponents of making stuff up, you see to like to refer to things outside of the films a lot.

    The information that the army was ordered by "Sifo-dyas, a Jedi" is dubious. Let's see what the Jedi know:
    • The Army was order in secret
    • The Army was ordered in the name of the council, but it was done without their knowledge or permission; i.e., it was ordered falsely for them.
    • The Jedi who is supposed to have ordered the army died around the same time; at the least, there is enough ambiguity around his death to cast doubt on his being the one to order the army.
    • The 'template' for the army claims not to have heard of this Jedi, claiming he was hired by somebody else; this suggests that their is an unknown actor involved who is not a Jedi, real or fake.
    • Said template also happens to work for their main enemy.
    So you're right about the trying to find evidence; the Jedi did in fact already have plenty of evidence to suggest that the army was not ordered with benign intent, at least not from the point-of-view of the Jedi Council. Furthermore, it appears that at least somebody is acting 'between sides', as it were, and even without specifics, these things should at least make one take a more circumspect approach to affairs which would make them more careful in their contact with the army, and given Palpatine's increased powers, including ultimate control of this army that was already conveniently there to use, might make them more careful with him. And arguing that "Palpatine could cover anything up", which is what you're implying, lapses into omnipotence or 'mind-control' plot, that he can do anything or anythingcan happen and he will succeed, thereby making everything a foregone conclusion.

    I suppose the films and what they show are fan fiction in that case. Or is it completely invalid to draw conclusions based on what is shown in the films versus what is not in them, and what is in one film compared to another?

    If nothing is shown or referred to, then from the point-of-view of the film's story, it never happened. If a plot line disappears from the film's story without any reference whatsoever, nothing further happened in that plot; don't forget we are talking about a story here, not a real universe. From what we see in R.O.T.S., the Jedi have gained no further insight into the origins of the army, and—because these doubts are never referred to—no longer remember that there was any suspicion; as shown by how they are taken by surprise when the army turns on them, there was no longer any residual suspicion; even afterwards, no one refers to the army being suspect. Comparing the two films shows that the Jedi no longer hold these suspicions in the second, and as nothing is shown that addresses the concerns, any answer apart from them no longer being remembered involves making stuff up from outside the films, which you are perfectly willing to do whilst accusing others of doing the same.

    Given the importance of the army to the plot—its presence exposes the Jedi directly to attack on Paplatine's command—to not address the fact that the Jedi had concerns that would lead them to be more careful with the army, concerns which were not fully followed up, leaves the plot incomplete.

    Again, anything more than 'no investigation' has no proof in the films. Nothing after the Kamino sequence on shows or implies an investigation, we don't even know what Yoda though by going away and meditating on things.

    The fact the Obi-wan, when talking in a conversation with two people in whom he has complete confidence (as opposed to have just met), and with said conversation being a discussion over these very points with people that would know about them, states the Sifo-dyas died before the army was order, a fact which Yoda and Mace Windu do not contradict, and also that Mace is confident that it was not a Jedi that ordered the army a pretty big hints as to there being somebody else behind the order.[/quote]
     
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  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I know that but Arawn_Fenn keeps insisting that this isn't established.


    Except they HAVE found proof. Obi-Wan says IN the film, that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the clone army was ordered. And neither Mace nor Yoda question this nor is he ever proven wrong IN the films.
    So the Jedi HAVE proof that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army as he was already dead when it happened.



    The point remains, the film made it pretty cut and dried, Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with this, it was Dooku/Sidious that did it all.
    Then the EU muddied the waters.


    They have two reasons,
    1) Jango, the clone army template, works for him.
    2) Their archives have been tampered with, something that only a Jedi could have done.
    Since this is obviously connected to the clone army, Dooku is a possible suspect here.


    [/QUOTE]

    Since they already had proof in the form of Sifo-Dyas being dead when the army was ordered and the proof that Jango works for Dooku, this is not an excuse.

    @gezvader28

    Why must any investigation prove inconclusive?
    If Palpatine had created false evidence that made the Jedi convinced that it really was Sifo-Dyas that did order the army and that he had help from some senators. Then that would go a long way to make the Jedi less suspicious about the clone army. It WAS ordered by one of their own etc.
    So the Jedi THINK that they know the truth but they don't.

    This makes them at least somewhat intelligent and makes Palpatine even smarter.

    Why have Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was dead before the army was ordered?
    If he doesn't mention that and instead ask if the council ok this or if it is possible that Sifo-Dyas acted on his own. Mace can say that the council never agreed to this but he admits it is possible that Sifo-Dyas did this. Then we the audience are given a reason why the Jedi might accept the clones as one of their own ordered them. Only at the end do we see that it was Dooku and so we know that he did it but the Jedi don't.

    This is simpler and works better in the story.
    Instead the Jedi are given loads of evidence that something is wrong and they just ignore that because the plot needs them to.

    Since the person that ordered the army did so under a false name, that makes it dubious.
    Effort has been made to keep the Jedi from finding the clone army, even more dubious.
    The person the clone army is based on is working for the very enemy that the clone army ends up fighting. EXTREMELY dubious.

    The clones are also totally obedient and will follow any order without question. So the person with the highest authority over them can make them do anything.

    So the Jedi have reason to be worried and reason to find out more about the clones. But they never talk about any of this nor do they even say that they should try to investigate further. The whole thing is just dropped.

    Except this explanation fails for several reasons,
    1) The Jedi know that the clones can not choose to be loyal, they can only follow orders. If they are given an order to kill all Jedi, they will comply.
    2) The Jedi talk about deposing the head of the republic and suspend the senate. The clone army was made for this senate and the head of the senate has the highest authority over said clone army.
    So if they act against the chancellor/senate, the clone army is a factor since Palpatine has the highest authority over them. But the Jedi totally ignore that.
    3) In AotC you don't have this three years worth of trust from battle. And yet the Jedi seem to trust the clones totally anyway. At NO point do the Jedi even ask the question, "Who really ordered the clone army?" Nor do they make any effort to find out. Nor do they make any effort to find out who tampered with the files. Nor do they comment of the Jango/Dooku connection and what this could mean.

    I have and they still look like morons.
    They know that clone army was ordered under a false name. They don't seem to bother about that..
    They know that their archives have been tampered with and a Jedi is behind it. They ignore that.
    They know that the template for the clone army works for Dooku, a Jedi turned to the dark side and who the clones now fight. They don't care.

    To sum up, the sith's plan isn't clever or beautiful, it is contrived and relies mostly on the rest of the galaxy being idiots.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Obi-Wan says that he was "under the impression" that he was killed before that. What's established in the movie is that the time of his death is not a certainty, and it makes sense for Dooku to use the identity of a Jedi whose time of death is uncertain enough to make the Jedi question the possibility. Mace and Yoda don't prove him wrong or right, which if anything only establishes the uncertainty even more.

    The scene where Dooku reunites with Sidious clarifies to the audience that the Sith, not a deceased Jedi, were behind the creation of the army. I believe Lucas' plan was to show the Jedi discovering the truth about that, but that ended up being irrelevant compared to everything else that ended up happening in RotS.
     
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    That Mace and Yoda do not question Obi-Wan or demand more information actually support what Obi-Wan said.
    If they doubted it, they would ask for clarification.
    Instead Mace calls the person behind this "Whoever", a clear indication that he doesn't believe that Sifo-Dyas did either.

    So Mace and Yoda accept what Obi-Wan says and after that, this whole issue is forgotten by them.

    This leaves the audience with the idea that the Jedi don't think that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army.


    [/QUOTE]

    But by ignoring this plot point he creates the impression that the Jedi are well aware that the clone army was ordered under a false name. That plus their seeming lack of interest in finding out more about this makes them look stupid.
    Probably not what Lucas intended but results matters more than intentions.
    After all, we all know about the Road to Hell and what it is paved with.

    Also, since the audience knows that Dooku ordered the army, if they imagine the Jedi doing some investigation, how can that investigation conclude that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army when he didn't?

    Again, a simple solution existed, have Obi-Wan NOT say the bit about Sifo-Dyas being killed before the army was ordered and instead they speculate that Sifo-Dyas could have done this.
    We, the audience, sees Dooku being called Tyrannus and so we can put the pieces together.
    But we can also see how the Jedi might not as they have enough reason to think that Sifo-Dyas really did this.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Then they all have that impression. It's still an impression.

    If it was clear, they would know already.

    That's correct. He doesn't believe it. Just like he didn't believe the Sith could have returned without the Jedi knowing. Still, he decided that they should investigate whoever attacked Qui-Gon despite his beliefs ("do not assume anything/clear your mind must be"). Nothing tells us that they didn't investigate either. The problem is that there is nothing to go by. And jumping to the conclusion that it was Dooku is not logical considering what they know (and don't know).
     
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  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I cannot argue for Fenn, but what I can say is what I've said before.

    No, they don't have proof. What they have is Lama Su saying that Sifo-Dyas had ordered the army and Obi-wan doesn't believe that they're lying. He is confused as to the time frame of this because he thought that Sifo-Dyas had died before then. But he doesn't know if that is accurate. They only know that he was dead as of a certain date, but the Jed don't know for certain. They only when when it was reported to them that he was dead.


    LOE didn't muddy the waters. It specified that the investigation was done and that Yoda concluded that Sifo-Dyas had done it, but that is what they believe happened. TCW makes it clear when Silman says that Sifo-Dyas was killed by Dooku who wanted to become him.

    Again, that doesn't mean that Jango told Dooku about the Clone Army. Nor does that mean that he is Tyranus. Not until later do they find out the truth.

    And it is possible that Sifo-Dyas did it before he died. It isn't until later that they put it together.

    As TCW points out, the Jedi were at an impasse as they couldn't find any proof that discredited the idea that Sifo-Dyas did it or not. Nor that Dooku knew anything about it. Obi-wan specifically says that the trail went cold on Felucia where Sifo-Dyas was when he died. It isn't until new evidence surfaces that the trail becomes warm again. Before then, the Sith had covered their tracks.

    But the Jedi still want to question Jango so as to get confirmation from him. While they know that they didn't give Sifo-Dyas permission, that doesn't preclude him from operating on his own. Nor enlisting someone to help him.
     
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  15. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Wow, this thread has really sparked a debate! Good to see so many different perspectives. This post is in response to the post Vimes directed towards me:

    Congratulations, Vimes! Once again, you've made great points, and have even proven a few of my own wrong. In all seriousness, I applaud your ability to reason, you seem like a pretty smart guy.

    There are some details you brought up that I disagree with, but what I said still stands regardless.
    Conducting investigation could've been brief. Showing some pictures and asking a few questions would've only consumed but a few minutes.

    With further thought on the matter, and you convincing me, I’ve come to agree with this sentiment.You’re absolutely right. I was getting into speculation, and if it is not clearly implied (it's not, I'll explain below), stated or shown that a character does something, how are we to know that they really did anything? All Yoda said was that he was going to see the Clone Army, and nothing more. So, I was wrong, forgive me.

    However, don't ignore my alternative explanation, surely arrogance stilted the Jedi's progress. Their inaction wasn’t because of stupidity, they just refused to believe that their standards, that had been practically set in stone for thousands of years, could be defied,and a sith deceiving them does that tenfold. They were overly conservative and dogmatic, and stubbornly clung to their cold, rigid, outdated, and obsolete value system until it blinded them from seeing anything outside of that value system as legitimate, which was their undoing.

    To put it simply, the Jedi had their heads waaaaay too far up their own butts to take any meaningful action. Any ominous signals were dismissed due to their inability see that they were in fact flawed, and not infallible.

    Yoda couldn't have done any investigating, and yes that includes looking to see if there's a record of the Kamino file. I've already been through this.

    Just because Jango was affiliated with Dooku and the Clones doesn’t mean there’s a significant correlation between these two things. Remember, bounty hunters are just in it for a paycheck. As long as they get handsomely paid, they’ll work for anybody, so it’s perfectly plausible that he was hired to be the template for the Clones, and then later on was hired by Dooku to assassinate Padme without these factors being connected to one another. Why was this particular bounty hunter hired to do both jobs, you ask? Well, if an army is being based on you, and you can be trusted to execute a high profile assassination, you must have a pretty notorious reputation.

    Since the Jedi were looking for any explanation that would validate their authority, they probably came to this conclusion, and then forgot about it. The Jedi always opted to rationalize things so that the odds appeared to be in their favor, even if there was another way to rationalize that was just as reasonable, if not more reasonable (“I do not believe the sith would’ve returned without us sensing it.” “ Chancellor Palpatine, sith lords are our specialty.”). This goes for this instance, and I’d argue the investigation as a whole. The Jedi just did not want to smell the roses, they’d rather stay in their fantasy land where they’re never bested by the Sith.

    For one, the Jedi doubted the return of the Sith heavily, so this matter wouldn’t have prompted them to do anything. Secondly, the Council put their own issues over the Republic’s at this point in time; it’s that arrogance thing again. I really don’t think they gave a damn about Naboo, they brushed the invasion off as trivial since most conflicts during this period really were, and because it didn’t interfere with the Order.

    Obi-Wan gave Qui-Gon his word that he’d train Anakin, it’d be disrespectful to the dead to hand him over to someone else. Plus, Obi-Wan was plenty skilled and wise, he seemingly had no problem fitting into the role of mentor.

    What was there for them to do? I guess they could’ve interrogated the Neimoidians, and they’d certainly tell them everything they know in a heartbeat, but I don’t think this would get them very far, and they’d have nowhere else to go afterwards.

    Unless, you have any ideas?
    This is nitpicking. It’s a bit of a hyperbole to call them morons for using these tactics, and because of what they did we got a better action scene than if they did something else. It made for good action, let’s just leave it at that. The plot is more important.

    I think this is on account of Yoda thinking he can handle things by himself, because “Jedi are clearly superior to Sith!”, of course.

    Like I said above, you’re completely right. I was originally going to defend my stance, but then you brought up this:

    Obi-Wan and Mace wouldn’t have known what Yoda learned on Kamino, and thus would still have concerns after the battle of Geonosis. Why wouldn’t a short exchange about who ordered the Clones be in the film if Yoda supposedly did investigating? Since such an exchange doesn’t exist, the investigating must also not exist.

    The fact that it would’ve been easier to just have it clear that Sifo Dyas ordered the Clones from the get go also alludes to this.

    Yet again, absolutely right. My mistake.

    ...Then again, the Clones sent warmness and compassion towards the Jedi akin to friendship, which I don’t think you can program into someone. In other words, the Clones had real, genuine good will that the Jedi would be hard pressed not honor, and is effectively deceptive at showing them where their allegiances lie. They shared a true comradery together, and whether that’d change with an order to kill doesn’t change the fact that when two people, or two factions, share a bond, trust is built, and when that trust is betrayed, there’s shock.

    Well enough to win the war according to ROTS.

    In actuality, the Clones never needed any additional forces, the fact that they won the war with only the Jedi at their side (in the films anyway) proves this. However, I can see how they’d be able to persuade the Senate to see otherwise, and use this to their advantage. The Jedi could’ve told these additional forces to be ready for a sabotage and keep an eye on the Clones. Plus, they’d be in a much more secure place going to the Senate with their evidence and urging them to remove the Clones from the battlefield, since any lack of concentration on the Separatists, once the Clones shifted their focus towards the Jedi, could have possibly been made up for with the supplementary forces. Whether this really happened, however, and the lack of concentration was properly tended to, would depend greatly on how big of a supplementary army could be amassed. If the Republic only gained more forces in the thousands, for example, that wouldn’t cut it and the Jedi would still be taking too big of a risk exposing the Clones. The numbers would have to increase by at least a million imo, due to the Separatists and the Clones both having numbers in the millions.

    Even so, I can’t see why the Jedi couldn’t have tried this plan out.

    Another good plan, I like the use of Babylon 5 as an example of a similar situation done right. Bail Organa and his circle were certainly trustworthy, and the more minds to brainstorm a way to deal with this potential threat the merrier.

    The only thing is, in order for the Jedi to be that proactive, they’d have to get off their high horse and unlodge their heads from their back ends, which wasn’t going to happen.

    Here’s how I look at the Jedi and the Clone mystery now: the Jedi’s evidence was highly suspicious and concerning, and the Jedi themselves were aware of this. Yet, it didn’t prove anything. Yes, it’s suggestive, and alluded to something vile and malevolent happening, but it did nothing in the way of proof, and this is what the Jedi wanted, proof. They weren’t going to throw away their beliefs on the Sith and where they stand against Jedi, which was held as an indisputable precedent for generation after generation, just because of a mere possibility, even if the possibility was a considerable one. It did not trump ancient, sacred values for them. So, because of this, they deemed the possibility as much less of a possibility, practically an impossibility, than it really was, and refused to accept the reality of the situation and do something bold about it until there was no way not to, and there was virtually no ambiguity on the matter at all, which was in Ep. 3 when it was abundantly clear that Palpatine was becoming a threat to democracy. If they weren’t going to be HANDED proof, they weren’t going to aggressively seek it out because what their evidence suggested wasn’t really possible in the Jedi’s eyes, and it was almost a certainty that the Jedi always prevailed over the Sith, and that the Sith couldn’t overthrow them.

    That’s not to say that the Jedi did nothing to help themselves though:

    Their evidence suggested that Dooku ordered the Clones, but the only way this would’ve been useful to him was if he was apart of a conspiracy with someone in the Senate, and that the war was a lie, which they did in fact have information that pointed to this, and not only that, Dooku flat out told Obi-Wan that there was a Sith in the Senate, which would mean a conspiracy did exist if he told the truth. So, if the Jedi were able to prove what Dooku said to be true, they proved that the Clones weren’t to be trusted. What’s one way to unveil a conspiracy? Attempt to find a Sith in the Senate by ‘keeping a closer eye on it’, which they agreed to do at the end of Ep. 2. They were attempting to kill two birds with one stone; finding the person in the Senate and removing their power would also remove the power of the Clones.

    Obviously they didn’t do enough though because nothing had changed once we got to Ep. 3.
     
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  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    It still is indicative of the Jedi mindset. They think that Sifo-Dyas DIDN'T order the army as he was dead by then.
    So the clone army was ordered under a false name. At least the Jedi think this is what happened.

    If you want to argue that the Jedi found stuff that runs counter to this and they for some reason become convinced that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army, then this HAS to be IN the films.
    If not, then you have a plot hole.

    Know already?
    How could Mace and Yoda know about the clones and Sifo-Dyas before Obi-Wan told them about it?

    He tells them that a clone army was ordered about ten years ago, supposedly by Sifo-Dyas, but according to Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas was killed before that. He then asks them if the council knew about this. Mace denies any knowledge of this and calls the person behind this "whoever".

    Mace and Yoda do not know more about the date the clone army beyond what Obi-Wan told them.
    They would know or at least have an idea about when Sifo-Dyas died. And nothing that Obi-Wan says conflicts with that. He says that Sifo-Dyas died more than "Almost ten years ago", they don't disagree so it is very likely correct.

    And again, how hard would it be for Mace and Yoda to check their records for Sifo-Dyas death?
    Not hard at all.
    So since Obi-Wan has been told the date the army was ordered and double checking the date Sifo-Dyas died would be very easy. The film leaves us with the idea that the Jedi DON'T believe that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army.


    [/QUOTE]

    And at the end of AotC, Mace doesn't say they will investigate the clone army or try to find out who really ordered the clone army or double check the dates to see if Obi-Wan is correct. He and the other Jedi just ignore the whole thing.
    Also, notice that Yoda scolds Obi-Wan after he speculates about whether or not the Kamino people had a hand in the attempt on Padme.
    However he does NOT do this after Obi-Wan says the bit about "I was under the impression..."
    And, since Obi-Wan had just been scolded and told not to assume stuff, that he still brings this up means he must be very sure about it.

    Films or indeed any storytelling works this way, if the story teller wants to show that something happened, he/she needs to show or indicate that it DID happen.
    The total absence of something can't be argued in favor that this something happened by saying "Well the story didn't prove that this didn't happen."
    If I want to argue that Luke and Leia slept with each other between ANH and ESB, I need actual positive evidence for this. I can't say "Well the films didn't show that they didn't sleep with each other so they totally did."
    Same here, those that want to argue for an investigation needs to find MOVIE evidence for it.
    Not EU, not Lucas comments, FILM only.
    If you bring up EU then you admit that the films don't stand on their own. Plus you create a plot hole if the Jedi think that Sifo-Dyas did order the army when the film shows the opposite.

    Lastly, I have several times given you plenty of reasons, and yes logical ones, that could make the Jedi SUSPECT Dooku.

    They know a Jedi must be involved since only a Jedi could tamper with their files. And since Sifo-Dyas is unlikely to have done anything on account of being dead, another Jedi must be involved.
    Dooku fits the bill here. Plus he is a renegade Jedi and he has turned to the dark side so doing bad stuff is kind of his thing.

    They also know that Jango works with Dooku and as I've said plenty of times, the odds that this is random chance are too low for them to ignore the possibility. So they have something that connects Dooku to the clone army.

    Also, Dooku, being a former Jedi, would know Sifo-Dyas name and that he was dead and would be ideal to pose as Sifo-Dyas.

    So to conclude.
    Dooku could have deleted the file, he is connected with Jango and he could pose as Sifo-Dyas and he has turned to the dark side and is thus quite evil.
    That the Jedi could think he is a suspect is very much "Well no freaking **** Sherlock!"

    As for motive, he is playing both sides. He wants a big war and a long one. Without the clones, the war would be over within days and the republic defeated. This way, the war will go on and be very costly, esp for the Jedi.

    @AllyoftheForce

    Some good responses but I have limited time right now and will try to get back to the rest of it later.
    Some quick comments.
    Why couldn't Yoda have tried to investigate who deleted the Kamino file?
    If the system is such that a record exist when a film was removed and by whom, that could tell them stuff. Or asking the librarian about any odd events or Jedi that worked a lot in their archives etc.
    In short, he could investigate and here he did have time as there was no war yet.
    Or delegate the investigation.

    Again, we are talking about a whole GALAXY's worth of assassins here.
    The odds that Jango got picked by pure chance is too low to ignore.
    Also, being a skilled assassin and a good soldier are quite different. An assassin, bounty hunter works by themselves, soldiers work in groups.
    So being the template for a clone army, an assassin isn't the first choice in my mind and being the template of a clone army does sound to be outside normal bounty hunting.
    Plus, Jango was kept on Kamino and had been for ten years. So it sounds that he did far less jobs than before and was thus "out of circulation" so to speak.

    If Nute had any holo-pictures of Sidious, they could look at those and spot the interesting resemblance to Palpatine. And they would know his name and Nute could tell them how to contact Sidious and they could try and trace the call. And Nute could tell them how Sidious first approached them, when etc.
    In short, they could learn lots of stuff.
    Or seize maul's ship and investigate that. When was it built, who bought it, where has it been?
    Look through the transmission logs and see if they can trace who Maul has been talking to.
    Again they can find out quite a bit.

    1,2 million clones won the war?
    That is a big stretch, consider, this is a galactic war, hundreds if not thousands of PLANETS.
    1,2 million soldiers in a war on just one planet, that isn't a whole lot.
    For a whole galaxy, that is extremely small.
    Consider, the total armies of Earth is something like 20-25 million men.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  17. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Samuel Vimes
    they don't have proof , they have a mystery .


    what senators ? and how does this solve the mystery of syfo-dyas ? you keep coming up with these inconclusive add-ons , so you're just proving my point .
    But , yes , I'm sure the Sith would've put out 'false-positives' to keep the jedi guessing , so if you want to speculate fine , but it would still add up to basically the same thing .


    you mean why have him say he was under the "impression" he was dead , well because obviously there's some doubt about when or if he died . But we've been over this .

    it was ordered in secret , this could be for a variety of reasons , obviously the jedi wouldn't have approved so it was kept secret from them , that would be the case if it were Dyas or any other jedi .

    you see you keep pointing at these things and then insisting that the jedi should've arrived at the conclusion we know from the movie , but that doesn't make sense , these questions could point in any number of directions . The movie focuses these things for you the viewer so you know what's going on , but it also expects you to have the wit to know that for the characters inside the story they don't get such a specific version of events

    not at all . He's a mercenary ! any gun-for-hire will work for both sides and its 10 years later .
    besides - what's your point ? Jango is doing a job for the separatists therefore . . . what ?

    you might as well point the finger at Mace - he could erase the files , he loves the Republic , he killed Jango to keep him quiet .
    And then of course there's all the other jedis who may have helped or been sympathetic to Dyas' plan . You can't just keep arguing that they look in the direction we know about .

    don't be ridiculous . Again , you're taking what you know from the films and insisting the jedi should know it too .
    the kaminoans make claims that the soldiers will obey orders without question just like any army trainer would make .
    what army wouldn't make these claims ?


    again , you've applied what you know from the films , the jedi don't know they have a psycho-kill switch in their heads .

    you keep arguing that the jedi didn't look into things , and then say this makes them look like morons , but you don't know they didn't look into things , thats speculation on your part, things are left out of all movies that don't really progress the plot .

    Well then I'll speculate that they did look into things but it just led to more questions and nothing conclusive .

    yep , the jedi were faced with a mystery surrounding the creation of the clone army , your solution is that they decide not to work with them and build an alliance against it , then the Republic would fall apart even faster , because that would cause all sorts of friction , but yeah , that works in favor of the sith too .

    you keep saying that the jedi should be suspicious of this / that etc. etc. Yeah , thats part of the sith plan , they even offer bits of truth wrapped in lies to keep them chasing smoke , to sow paranoia , I actually think the Jedi acted smart in this regard - they couldn't solve the mystery of syfo-dyas conclusively so opted to work with the clones because as I've said this sort of camarederie in combat tells one a lot more about someone's character than any bit of paper or testimony from a senator .
    .
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    They may think that, but they don't take that assumption as fact. To do so clouds one's judgment. The fact is that they don't know, thus the term "whoever".

    The Jedi don't know. They may (or may not) think so, but don't assume so.

    Right. But since it isn't, then we have to assume that they have nothing that convinces them one way or another.

    Know about his time of death. If they knew for certain about how he died and his time of death, then they could exclude the possibility that he ordered the army. They don't. One can assume that such details are vague enough for Dooku to use Dyas identity in his favor.
     
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  19. PaperSkin

    PaperSkin Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2015
    One of the things I don't get is how were the Republic so ok with using what is a slave army..... shouldn't there be people not cool with that..... Like Padme for one.... But its never brought up be it in the movies or in the Clone Wars series that the people, even just some people, of the Republic are not happy about it... even if they feel like its necessary to use them as they are backed into a corner....

    Really it should of been the separatist using clones and the Republic using droids... but then I'm of the opinion that perhaps it would of been better for there never to of been battle droids, and it should of always been people fighting as soldiers.... because it brings up the notion of why don't the Empire then use battle droids rather than stormtroopers if droids can be used as such... Droids should of been just be as basically service help, chores maintenance etc but would never fit to be soldiers... hence the need for people...
     
  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    If the clones themselves are "cool with that", why should others raise a problem that doesn't exist?
     
  21. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    As far as being slaves the clones got 3 hots & a cot & free health care.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    The whole point of this endeavor was to put the Republic as morally questionable using clones to fight, which helps to blur the lines and bring the Force out of balance. The Senate gives Palpatine the means to take control and use the Clone Army to fight for the Republic, which shows that the Jedi was afraid to lose its power and was willing to compromise. In TCW, Barriss points out that there are those in the Republic who do not like that the Jedi fought in the war and that the war is even going on. The Jedi and the Republic compromised themselves in the name of war and out of fear.
     
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    The Jedi themselves don't like to fight in a war, nor do they like that there is a war to begin with. But reality is not what they like so they do what they must to help end the conflict as soon as possible. It's not out of fear or loss of power. It's out of duty of having a Republic to protect.
     
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    1) Yes they have proof, the date of Sifo-Dyas death was, according to Obi-Wan, before the ordering of the clone army. This is proof that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army.
    2) The Jedi also have proof that Jango, who has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, works for Dooku, a fallen Jedi.
    3) Even if we ignore that, so the film sets up a mystery that is then totally ignored. This is bad writing.



    If the Jedi have ample reason to think that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army then that would go a long way to put their minds at ease and make them less cautions. Ergo, it would serve the sith interest to do this and not have the Jedi ask too many questions.

    Incidentally, I don't believe that the Sith planned to lead the jedi to Kamino in AotC.
    If the jedi had not found it but the Kamino people had contacted the senate themselves and then Dooku had attacked then the clone army would be approved and war would begin. But this way, the Jedi would not know anything about Jango, they would not know the name Tyrannus nor would they know the date mismatch. In short, they would have much less to go on and less reason to question the clone army.


    There is some doubt about if Sifo-Dyas is dead or when he died? What version of the film did you watch? Obi-Wan says quite clearly that Sifo-Dyas is dead and he even gives an approximate time of death even with just seconds to think.
    And neither Mace nor Yoda question Obi-Wan says about Sifo-Dyas death meaning that what he said doesn't conflict with what they know.
    So the film proves you wrong.

    That Sifo-Dyas is dead is never questioned in the film. The film even have Obi-Wan say that Sifo-Dyas was KILLED. This implies more than if he said that he said "Died". Killed implies that this wasn't death by natural causes so Obi-Wan not only knows when he died but also how he died.

    The date he died is also not presented as a mystery, it is instead just that it was ten years ago and Obi-Wan, quite understandably, is a bit rusty about the date when suddenly told about Sifo-Dyas.
    And even IF Obi-Wan memory is fuzzy about the exact date of Sifo-Dyas death, asking Mace and Yoda about it or have them check their records is very easy.
    So since the film does not have Obi-Wan do this very easy thing, the film is saying quite clearly, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered and the Jedi KNOW it. Or the film is making Obi-Wan into a complet idiot for not doing this very easy thing.


    The order was said to have been at the request of the senate. If the senate had given it's ok for this, then the Jedi's approval is irrelevant as they could not stop it.
    The senate never gave such an order so this is at best illegal and at worst treason.
    The fact that the order was done under a false name and a dead Jedi's name was used and that the Jedi files were tampered with makes it even more worrying.

    If a senator or group of senators had done this, why use the name of a dead Jedi? They could just make up any fake name, the Kamino people don't care as long as they get paid.
    The only reason that makes sense is that when this illegal army is discovered and it will eventually, then if a Jedi's name is attached to it then it seems more legit and the rest of the senate and the JC would be less inclined to ask questions. So whoever ordered it doesn't want anyone to look too closely at it.

    But a Jedi has to be involved since only a Jedi could have deleted Kamino.
    And a Jedi is involved with the template of the clone army and this Jedi has also left the order and fallen to the dark side.
    Could they be the same person?


    No what I keep insisting is that the Jedi have reason to smell a rat, that there is a chance that there is something fishy with the clone army, that they are aware of many highly questionable things and have plenty of reason to be worried.
    As for what the Jedi know vs what the audience knows. The ONLY thing they don't know is that Dooku is Tyrannus. But as I've said many times, they have have reason to SUSPECT that.

    This is my main point, that the Jedi can SUSPECT things. Not that they have 100% clear proof of everything. Thus they should ask more questions, investigate matters and generally be more alert.
    But instead the films paints them as clueless morons.
    And not once asking the question "Hey, Jango, the army template worked for Dooku, do you think there is a connection here?" That IS stupid.


    Again, galaxy's worth of assassins and only an idiot would ignore this connection and not even consider the idea.



    Again, the order of the army is illegal at best and treason at worst. You must have a really low opinion of the jedi if you think they are so quick to do this.

    Also, your alternatives are way more far fetched than mine.
    Ex. say that FBI is investigating the murder of a US senator and they know the name of the assassin that did it. Then they find out that this same assassin was behind the murder of another US senator five years ago but was never caught and his employer was never identified.
    Do you think it is possible that the FBI would CONSIDER the possibility that these two deaths might be connected?
    If we add to this and say that the first senator was opposed to some project that would have benefitted some rich and powerful business guy. A project that then passed after the senators death.
    Then the second senator is also opposed to another project from this same business guy and which now looks to pass because of this death.
    Could they consider the possibility of a connection?


    You are being ridiculous by ignoring the film.
    What army today is made up of genetically modified clones?

    The clones are modified to become more obedient and less independent and they obey orders without question. The Jedi KNOW this. But you insist that they should just ignore it because??


    Again the Jedi knows as much as I do, that the clones are made to be totally obedient.
    Also, Kamino has made other clone armies in the past. So the Jedi would know about cloning and it's capabilities. So they would likely know that this was no idle boast, the clones are this obedient.


    Again, if a storyteller wants to establish that something happened then put that IN the story.
    Ignoring it is bad writing.
    And no it isn't speculation on my part, I take what is established IN the film and draw my conclusions from that.
    You and others are the ones who make up stuff to shore up the film and make the Jedi seem less retarded.


    So you think that the Jedi still don't know who ordered the clone army?
    This to you isn't fishy? This to you isn't reason for the Jedi to view the clones with some caution?

    And you don't think that the Jedi could conclusively prove that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army?
    Based on what exactly?
    From the film it is pretty simple, compare the date Sifo-Dyas died with the date the army was ordered.
    The Jedi knows both dates so this is easy.



    When did I say that the Jedi should refuse to work with the clones?
    I that's right, I didn't, nice straw man.
    What I have said here and other places, is that the Jedi should make preparations for the possibility that the clones are part of some conspiracy. Not flat out refuse them.
    They have little choice to use them in AotC but after that they should a) investigate as much as they can and b) reach out to senators they feel they can trust and slowly build an alliance in case things turn bad.
    So play along and make plans.

    Like in Babylon 5, which I have referenced many times.
    The main characters there have reason to smell a rat but they go along, follow orders while building a new alliance in secret.
    This is smart.


    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry but I don't view the sith's plan as smart or clever because it relies mostly on everyone else in the galaxy being idiots.

    That the jedi still have many questions about but since they can't find the answers the Jedi go "Well we have this army that we know nothing about but let's work with it and take no precautions what so ever and make no plans at all if it turns out that they are not friendly."
    Sorry, this isn't smart.
    This has the Jedi work with clones they shouldn't trust in the hope that the clones don't turn on them.
    Again, I am not saying the Jedi should refuse in AotC, they had little choice there. But they should have asked more questions, been more careful and made some plans for the eventuality that the clones were not their friends.

    If the Jedi can't solve the mystery of the clones then there is the possibility that the clones are part of some evil plan. And by blindly going along with it, they are playing into the hands of whoever is behind this. Again not smart.

    @Alexrd
    Really?
    So if people today were drugged and brain-washed so that they were happy in slavery, that to you would make slavery totally ok?



    Except Obi-Wan pretty much excludes the possibility that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army by saying that he was dead by then. And Mace and Yoda don't question it nor is the matter ever talked about later.

    Obi-Wan knows that Sifo-Dyas is dead and when he died.
    What makes you think that Mace and Yoda don't also know this?
    You ASSUME that there is some uncertainty about the date Sifo-Dyas died but that is just that, something you assume. It isn't based on the film.
    The film doesn't present the date of Sifo-Dyas death as something unknown to the Jedi.
    As I said above, the Jedi knows how he died.
    That Obi-Wan says what he says is simple, a Jedi he knows to be dead has apparently ordered an army after his death. Something does not add up here, hence his confusion.

    Except Obi-Wan was convinced enough to bring it up and Mace and Yoda didn't question it.
    And the fact that checking the date when Sifo-Dyas died would be something very simple, it's omission from the film implies that it isn't needed and thus the Jedi know that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the clone army.


    The use of whoever implies that they don't know who ordered the clone army but they can rule out Siof-Dyas based on what Obi-wan said.

    The mystery the film presents to the Jedi is "Who really ordered the clone army?" as they have evidence that suggest that Sifo-Dyas didn't.

    Either Jedi at least conclude that Sifo-Dyas didn't do it, which the film very much implies.
    Or they don't know at all.

    That this mystery is totally ignored is bad writing. A mystery is set up and then just dropped.

    This could be worked into RotS, the Jedi talk about the clones and how they still don't know really ordered them. Some Jedi view them with distrust but other Jedi, like Obi-Wan, who has served with the clones, speak out for them.
    You have a mystery here, do something with it!

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    "Proof" would be it being shown that he'd died before the order was placed, rather than Obi-Wan simply saying "I was under the impression he was killed before that."
     
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