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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Considering the 'Clone Mystery' and the Jedi in AOTC...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AllyoftheForce, Jun 12, 2016.

  1. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Are you saying that's what happened?

    He doesn't exclude, hence the word "impression". And Mace and Yoda aren't able to clarify one way or another, which if anything indicates ambiguity.

    Sorry, you are the one assuming that it's a certainty when what's in the film are impressions and non-answers.

    They don't confirm nor deny Obi-Wan's impression. That's what happened. Anything else is your assumption.

    No, any more information isn't needed, because the movies aren't about the Jedi discovering the truth, but about them being played. The scene with the Sith at the end is meant to clarify the audience. The Jedi are still in the dark and will continue to be until they have no other choice.

    Based on Obi-Wan's impression?

    They suspect that he didn't do it, but the possibility exists, which is why his identity was used in the first place.

    The mystery is not ignored. It's simply not what the movies are about. It's a mystery. And the Jedi aren't meant to reach a conclusion.
     
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  2. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Samuel Vimes
    no , again this is you speculating that they acted stupid and then complaining that they acted stupid .

    same with those arguing that the jedi have proof that Dyas is dead , the movie never says that , the jedi assume he's dead and then Kenobi seems unsure .
    All movies leave things out and we assume things happened based on common sense , it makes sense that they did investigate , your idea that they didn't doesn't make sense ,

    you're looking thru the wrong end of the telescope here , thats not how odds work .
    Jango is a mercenary , the seperatists are the new big employer in town , it would actually be very likely that he'd get a job with them , especially since he's one of the top guys in his field .

    he'd just been on a job on Coruscant , Taun We actually refers to his 'trip' , he wouldn't be much good at his job if he'd been "out of circulation" for 10 years , he could've done any number of jobs for various people ,

    ok , try arguing that 'in-universe' . You're gonna go round saying that Dooku had an army big enough to defeat the Republic and then he bought and arranged another army to fight against him which will probably defeat him now .

    yeah , or maybe that's what Dooku wants the jedi to think , that way they'll distrust the clones and cause all sorts of paranoia .
    Or maybe there's someone else good or bad who ordered the clones
    Or maybe Dooku is the leader of the seperatists and had nothing to do with the clones .
    Maybe Dooku's got a third nipple .
    There's lots of conspiracy theories in wartime .

    Thing is - you don't have any proof , well - Jango who's a merc is working for the seperatists now - mmm - nah , and Dooku's a bad Jedi - yeah true , maybe they should look for more bad Jedi .
    So are you gonna start sowing this paranoia in the senate ? amongst the jedi ? That'd be good , the Republic is already falling apart and now you're telling them not to trust the clones as well , I reckon the Sith would see that as a good result

    I mean the general idea of what you're saying is fine - the war is bad for everyone including jedi , but they know that , they've tried to stop it happening , and there is more going on than they know , they acknowledge that at the end of AotC .
    But the fact is the war has begun , the seperatists have a huge army . The jedi know that this is already a failure hence Yoda's sad remarks at the end of AotC , they tried to keep the peace , and they're aware that whatever the reasons the galaxy is at war and war is always bad . But this is the situation now .

    They'll investigate , they'll work with the clones and see what they're like (they could even do tests to see how they behave and I'm sure they'd act within normal parameters , after all they need a pyschological code to activate their kill-switch type behaviour and the jedi don't know about that ) .

    no it isn't , and he's not sure . it's not proof

    .
    yep , as I said before .

    there's lots of jedi .
    no , there's lots of other things they don't know , others have answered that .

    and I'm sure they did , it makes sense that they would , you're the one that keeps arguing that they didn't .

    well the senate were quick enough to accept them .
    so the jedi should start up a secret alliance with some senators against the clones ? well apart from all the division and mistrust that'll breed what will this achieve ?




    I don't know what that means , they aren't cold or robotic , but I'm sure the jedi could do some behavioural tests

    I don't remember them saying they did

    well I already said how I think they'd trust them
     
  3. Straudenbecker

    Straudenbecker Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2015
    Mace and Yoda practically told Obi-Wan, that he was right about Sifo-Dyas dying before the order was placed.
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    It was out of fear. That was the dirty secret of the Jedi Order. They feared losing the Republic and that is why they went to war willingly, rather than let the Republic fight without them as they should have.

    Except Taun We says that they were expecting a Jedi to show up, per what Sifo-Dyas said.

    TAUN WE: "Master Jedi. The prime minister is expecting you."

    IOBI-WAN: "I'm expected?"

    TAUN WE: "Of course. He is anxious to meet you. After all these years... we were beginning to think you weren't coming. Now, please, this way."

    Hence the Sith were intending to lead the Jedi to the Clone Army. Not the other way around. The solution to setting this up presented itself when Nute started bitching about Padme embarrassing him which he used as leverage for joining. You can disagree with that all you want, but the film paints a very clear picture.

    Or said Jedi who is alleged to have done this, did so before he died. Very easy to believe that.

    Why would they even think that? How does his working for Dooku now, indicate that he is the Tyranus that Jango spoke of? What would make anyone even think that? What, his name? We're living in a universe with a Rodian named Greedo, a human named Han Solo and a guy named Snoke. That's why when Obi-wan does find out that Dooku is Tyranus, he's shocked because it never occurred to him.

    Then Obi-wan is an idiot, because he didn't see a connection. He believed that Tyranus had nothing to do with Dooku.

    Not until they get confirmation two years later. But they don't believe that the Clonetroopers are a threat to them, as they have control of them and that no one would use them beyond the Jedi.

    But they cannot prove anything. They don't know what Sifo-Dyas did because they didn't keep track of his movements before his death. They don't know where to find Tyranus and Jango's dead. The only thing the Jedi know is that they didn't give him permission to do this. The dates are too close to each other, which is why they're having trouble pinpointing anything else.
     
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Where does that even come from? The Republic was not theirs to lose. They served it. And as servants of it, they did their part to help end the war ASAP.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    What Yoda said in "Rebels". The Jedi acted out of fear. Fear of losing the Republic and what it stood for. They served it, but they also wanted to keep it going. But they couldn't see that the writing was on the wall. That it was time for it to fall and when they took charge of the Clone Army to rescue Obi-wan and stop the Confederacy, they did so because they were afraid to lose the Republic. They gave into fear and became soldiers, not peace keepers.
     
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  7. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    How do you know they didn't do much about it? You are making an inference that the Jedi didn't investigate based on what evidence? We leave off at AOTC with the Jedi just, and I mean just having found the Clones and at the same time being thrown into a war where not only the Jedi, but, the Republic need those clones in order to fight the war. We then have a period of years in-between AOTC and ROTS and we see the war is still raging. Yet, how do you know that the Jedi haven't continued their investigations? How do we the audience know that the Jedi have or have not investigated.

    For me, it is easy to believe that the Jedi have continued their investigation, that they came to a point where they couldn't go forward in the investigation, and they probably did believe that the army and circumstances of the war were questionable. Yet, what exactly were they supposed to do about it? Throw the Republic to the wolves, pull the Jedi Order out of the War, let the Separatists run over the Republic, planet by planet? The Separatists that the Jedi know for a fact are being supplied and funded by greedy Mega-Corps, one of which the Jedi know for a fact dealt with a Sith Lord in trying to enslave a planet. The same Separatists that the Jedi know for a fact is led by Dooku, who has been consumed by the Dark Side (It is not made 100% clear if the Jedi know of Dooku's Sith allegiance by the time of ROTS).

    The Jedi were stuck between a Rock and a Hard Place. Pull out of the war, and allow the Republic and it's people to fall under the control of the Separatists, or use a questionable Clone Army and try to win the war fast enough before the other shoe dropped on them. What they don't realize is that Palpatine controlled all the shoes, and the Jedi had no real chance in trying to figure anything out.

    Now please understand my following thoughts and comments are not specifically about you, as I have not read enough of your content to know where you stand. So please do not take my following generalizations as being about you because as always there are exceptions...

    It is my belief, from reading various opinions about this subject on these boards, other boards, personal conversations with people I know, Social Media etc etc, that for the most part people that have an overall issue with the PT as a whole, seem to want to ignore any kind of logical inference about what happened between AOTC and ROTS in order to further demonize the Prequels as this being an example of poor writing etc etc. It has also been my experience that people that have an axe to grind with the Jedi of the PT also seem to want to ignore any logical inferences just so they can call the Jedi stupid because of this situation.

    Basically it seems to me that if people have any kind of an axe to grind about anything in the PT, they will find a reason to find the Jedi stupid. I have read some peoples posts about this specific content so much, it becomes clear they don't want an answer or aren't even looking for one, they are only looking to have an issue in order to self fulfill their already established opinion that the PT sucked. It's the reason I just don't bother reading their posts anymore. If I read one of their posts, I've basically read them all...
     
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  8. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    mikeximus :

    I honestly didn't know what to think about the issue at first, I wasn't trying to demonize the Jedi or confirm with this thread that prequels suck. In fact, I enjoy the prequels. I just wanted other people's POV so maybe I could make sense out of this matter easier, which I did. This thread has been very beneficial in that regard.

    Just to clarify.
     
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  9. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    Yup, that's why I made sure to point out I wasn't including you in my final thoughts/generalizations. Just after 4+ years on these boards, I've seen the same posts by the same members over and over and over again. Even with very well and thought out, plausible answers offered to them, they just refuse to accept anything constructive and continue to answer and counter with continued "what if's" and "yeah buts"...
     
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  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Just to clarify, it's Dyas time of death that is uncertain, not the death itself.

    Ah, not something from Lucas himself then. I don't trust something created a posteriori by someone else about Lucas' characters and story.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It was born from what was in "The Clone Wars" when Barriss talked about her reasons for betraying the Jedi, which Lucas himself approved of. Yoda telling Ezra that the Jedi were wrong to fight in the Clone Wars is an extension of that.
     
  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Lucas approved, but it doesn't mean Lucas agrees (Filoni does, I know. But he's not Lucas). After all, she's crazy. It's perfectly in-character for her to twist the facts and paint the Jedi as villains. Not to mention that Lucas requested a change on the final scene of that episode where Ahsoka (originally) blamed the Jedi. That says a lot.
     
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  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    What exactly did Lucas himself approve of? Barriss presented her point of view and regarding some basic issues she was right, yet Lucas also had her portrayed as a hypocrite, who had herself betrayed plenty of Jedi ideals by trying to frame Ahsoka and not minding she would be executed for a crime she didn't commit.

    By portraying her as a hypocrite, Lucas himself had considerably eroded her credibility, but it could seem that Dave Filoni and team were somewhat oblivious to that.
     
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  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Exactly. It's not something established in the episode. It's just a rant from a mad traitor. What she had to tell herself to do the things she ended up doing.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    How do you know that Lucas doesn't approve. If he allowed it in the show and he considered the show to be an extension of his films, then he approves of it.


    Crazy, not stupid. As to changing the ending, that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't agree with the philosophy. Just that he felt that Ahsoka would still believe that the Jedi were right about many things, but not every thing. As to Barriss's actions, she's under the influence of the dark side. She knows what she is doing is wrong. The point is that she is also pointing out the hypocrisy of the Jedi, who claim to be peacekeepers, yet conduct war and call themselves generals. Who were the aggressors in the war, but preach that aggression is wrong. The Council even says that their objective is to win the war at all costs and are willing to go against their principles in order to achieve those goals. Lying to the Senate, withholding information, planning to overthrow the Chancellor and having Anakin spy on him.
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I said the exact opposite.

    It definitely doesn't say that he does.
     
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  17. Carlandrea

    Carlandrea Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 1, 2016
    P. Drfg


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I think they handled it properly seeing as they had no choice.