Speculation Conspiracy Theory on Lucas, Disney and Episode 7

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by phatdude1138, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Regardless of what some of us think, I hope it's because he's admitting his mistakes with some of the things he's done with films in the last fifteen years and this is his way of having them corrected, either by restoring some of the things he's changed in the OT, or re-editing the PT to make it more coherent and therefore better.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Dec 2, 2012
  2. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I doubt it. The closest he came to admitting a mistake was the change from shoots second to shoots simultaneously. This guy seems majorly concerned with saving face... needing to be right all the time. Unless he experiances some kind of personality change, he will probably never fix these things. And for the record, It is my belief that that is his prerogative. It will have to be some other rights holder, probably after he, god forbid, passes away... In the mean time there are some wicked fan edits out there that seem to have got them right.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Dec 2, 2012
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This. People here have even been defending the changes to that scene, which I find perplexing.
  4. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    What I've noticed is that there seems to be a certain type of fan that needs to live in a world where GL is perfect. In my opinion, it seems to have warped their judgement about what is or is not and objectively good film. Because they are ever only just one step away from claiming that they have a right to their opinion and that you must not be a "real" fan when you try to engage them, all you can do is just smile and accept that they are a lost cause.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    There is no such thing as an "objectively good film," as art is subjective in and of itself. By whose criteria are we defining an "objectively good film"? Even a film that is panned by film critics--who are people paid to have an opinion, which any of us may or may not share--might be enjoyable to some, and thus their idea of a "good film."

    Siskel and Ebert were two professional film critics with often very different opinions of the same film. Neither of them were "wrong."

    I don't think Lucas is perfect by any means but I think the whole notion of "objectively" good or bad films needs to be dropped.
    kainee and VMeran like this.
  6. Krueger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    I said it before in another thread. I think people who use that term to describe, for example, a film really don't realise what that makes them sound like. Many films I think are garbage are loved by other members of my family. I would never dream of being arrogant enough to wave the “objectively” card. That line of thought should only be reserved for where it really should be used, like for a medical report or for something equally as important. The constant use of that term when talking on a fan message board is just a form of instigation, and I suspect that the people using that term know that full well.
    Last edited by Krueger, Dec 2, 2012
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  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    A variation of that type of fan are the ones who say: "Lucas is the artist, so BY DEFINITION, his ideas/stories/concepts are better than ANYONE ELSE'S!!!". :rolleyes:o_O
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Dec 2, 2012
  8. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I disagree. It is my opinion that movies can be executed in a way that removes the need for subjectivity in judging them. There are several things that can go wrong in executing a film, and I believe that several of those things objectively went wrong with some of the Star Wars movies. I believe there are Star Wars movies that can be objectively said to have uneven tone, bad acting, and bad dialog. The only way around this is to let your love for a movie blind you your ability to acknowledge that it even can be objectively judged. In my opinion, this is where we get people that make the argument that "good" or "bad" is in the eye of the beholder with respect to judging this particular set of films.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Dec 2, 2012
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    So in other words, anyone who disagrees with your personal opinion if the films, is just too stupid or too in love with Lucas, and when he or she becomes more enlightened, he or she will of course come to share your more "correct" view of the saga.

    How is such a viewpoint not considered arrogant?
  10. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    What about New Wave SF enthusiasts who think all Star Wars is infantile dog crap? What about eight year old kids who think the Clone Wars cartoon is the one true Star Wars? What about some average film viewer who catches a few minutes of ANH and wonders why Princess Leia has a hokey erratic accent?

    See, there's more people to shake your fist at in addition to those dastardly prequel appreciators! Shake away!
  11. Krueger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4

    Yeah, I'm kind of leaving this discussion now. His reply was the exact reply I was expecting, including the (offensively) famous use of the "blind" word. The passive-aggressiveness of overbearingly arrogant people can never be disguised, no matter how hard they try.
    Last edited by Krueger, Dec 2, 2012
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  12. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    KilroyMcFadden is not saying anything "outrageous" here really, it's just a matter of people's favored 'ox' being 'gored' (in this case, the PT/SE's), and how that 'ox' is proven to be an exception to their acceptance of any criticism of popular entertainment/art.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Do what? There is a big difference between saying that "people who like the prequels can't take criticism" (not true across the board either) and "people who like the prequels are Lucas worshipping idiots with no taste". What he said was essentially the latter.
  14. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
    "Proven exception?"There's a lotta trippy assumptions being made in this conversation.

    Did it ever cross your mind that the ox has been gored so many times that the act has lost its impact, other than to make the slaughtering party feel better?
  15. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    This comment leads me to suspect that at some point someone was able to conjure within you, feelings of inadequacy regarding your love for these movies. That's a shames, because it is a roadblock to an honest discussion about the merits of these films.
    Heero_Yuy likes this.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Making assumptions about the thoughts and feelings of people on an Internet message board is certainly a good way to break down those "roadblocks to discussion."

    [Obi-Wan]"Good job."[/Obi-Wan]
    LawJedi likes this.
  17. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    If I disagree with someone on their opinion of a movie, I just accept it. I don't write a 500 word essay or do a power point on why I think they're wrong. That would be a waste of time and energy. I just move on.
    FOR GOD'S SAKES DON'T WRITE A 500 WORD ESSAY OR DO A POWER POINT :_|
    LawJedi likes this.
  18. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You are, of course, entitled to your belief. Objectively speaking, there are those who believe differently. We would all do well to respect one another's beliefs.





    "You don't believe in the George, do you?"
    /LM
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  19. phatdude1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 4
    This is going to be one of those 500 page posts, so I'm recommending everyone just skip it :)

    It is true, in my world Lucas is essentially perfect when it comes to Star Wars. I'm not a religious person by any means, but it's the closest analogy: how could the creator create something flawed, if he is the creator? It's like saying "Leonardo da Vinci could have done better with the 'Mona Lisa' ".

    However I understand reality and I try to understand why people hate the prequels so much. This is what I've come up with, but usually PT haters don't want to entertain the thought:

    When SW was released, the planet had never, ever seen anything closely even related to it. From it's technological breakthroughs to it's impact on our culture as we know it, it set the bar for everything to come. Also most people that had seen the OT were young and impressionable. When you saw the OT, you knew nothing of academy awards. You had no idea who James Lipton was. You didn't care who directed, what "dark" was. Action. Lighting. You were a kid, so SW was just "magical".

    So fast forward 16 years. In your head you imagined for 16 years how SW "should be". "Your" interpretation of how the PT should be. You also had 16 years to grow up and learn all the "grown up" stuff that goes into films: acting, directing, what you are "told" makes a good movie. When you went in to see TPM, you didn't go in as a child expecting nothing but an exciting adventure, you went in as a movie critic. Not to mention a movie critic who had 16 years of preconceived notions of how "it should be". That's the same thing that will happen with ST. 10 more years of expectations, and the new crew isn't going to live up to that anticipation either.

    One last thing on the PT: we can say millions of people, including Hollywood, hate it, but no one can deny that the SE & even more the PT, brought SW back, BIGGER than ever. More books, comics, video games, clothing, accessories. You name it, there is MORE now, then at the time of the OT (1977-1983). It spawned TCW. Star Wars celebrations. SW was all but dead after 1983. Lucas brought it back. Hell, most likely this forum might not even exist if SW didn't come back. Or in best case, it wouldn't be as popular as it is now. So I ask, how could something so "bad" generate so much popularity? Hey don't believe me, believe Disney, because apparently to the PT haters, they are buying complete garbage. Seriously, would Disney shell out 4 billion in stock and cash if the PT was the biggest trilogy flop of all time?

    It's not that us "Lucas Defenders" are arrogant, or unable to listen to any other argument, it's just when people say they are "Star Wars fans", yet hate the PT, it's seems kinda contradictory. Just say you are a fan of the classic movies and nothing else. I consider myself as a "total fan". I like almost all the EU, TCW, both the PT and the OT.

    It's not an opinion, it's a fact. It's math. Pound for pound of SW material and media, I like MORE SW than you. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. If you put the 6 movies in front of me and I say I like 6 of them, and you say you like 3 of them. I mathematically like "more Star Wars". You can engage me and say why you feel the movies are no good, but I've liked them for more than a decade now, and I'm not going to change my mind. Just like I'm not going to change yours that you hate the PT.

    I'm used to this though. It's easy for people to "debate" faceless strangers on a forum, but I've debated super close friends that I've known for 20 years on the PT vs the OT. I haven't lost any friends over it, so it's all good. I don't even want to lose "forum friends". I like TFN and I come here to discuss my love of SW (which incidentally is 3 more movies than you ;) )
    kainee, VMeran and JainaSoloYJK like this.
  20. lord_eidolon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2004
    star 3
    The true conspiracy is this:

    The Holiday Special is the TRUE saga.

    Everything else is EU backstory and non-canon.
  21. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    So, wait. 3 pages in and I forgot what the conspiracy is supposed to be anyway.
  22. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Ya gotta love it when someone manages to write something like "I believe that it can be objectively said that..." I mean,seriously, there's a beauty to that.
    LawJedi likes this.
  23. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    I don't think there is any conspiracy, I think Lucas was hurt by PT (and Indy 4) hate and criticism of his abilities as a director and writer. Deep down I think he knew the best and most revered SW movie is the one he had the least amount of control over, Kershner did a better job of putting his vision on screen for him. He knows KK will ensure the right people are brought in for the job, and he cans till oversee what ideas they have to see if they fit with his vision. He no longer has the power to say no to things, but he can influence KK to do it if he feels the ideas for the movies are no good.
    He wins both ways, if the movies fail he won't get blamed and if they are a success he can point to his treatments and roles and say "these were my ideas, fools".




    As I recall, the only reason the Death Star appears in ANH is because Lucas thought he would only ever be able to do one movie. The original plan was for the Emperor and Death Star to feature at the end, so when he did ROTJ as the final movie he shoved another Death Star in, which was kinda pointless but was at least more like the ending he always had in mind.
  24. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    He's almost 70. I think that is a factor far more than intricate plans to make Internet people think that he is totally cool again, not as cool as Nolan but darn close. Understandable why he wouldn't want to invest another decade of his life being heavily involved in the creation of yet another space adventure trilogy.
  25. Cantina Bassist Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Oh, Law. Here you go again. He said "concerned", not "white knuckled panic".