Contested units

Discussion in 'Games: TCG' started by Itchy_c, Apr 16, 2003.

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  1. Itchy_c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2002
    I have a question about bidding for force on characters. Ex. If My opponent has a Vader and bids 4 force to keep him, Do I have to raise that bid to keep my Anakin out, or can I only bid 2 force if that is all I need to keep him out? What I'm trying to say is that is there one bid that both players raise like at a auction, or does each player have their own bid?
  2. RedneckJedi Historian, JediOKC Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 2
    The ANH rulebook explains this explicitly, but I'll see if I can explain it easily.

    The sum of the Force you bid and the total build cost of the LS contested unit must be greater than the sum of the Force the opponent bids and the total build cost of the DS contested unit. (Remember, DS wins ties.) This is taken into account after both players pass on bidding. So, the winning bidder isn't necessarily the one who bids the most Force. The winning bidder pays the Force, and the losing bidder retreats their contested unit and does not pay Force.

    I had this come up in playtesting today. Vader was in play with 9 build total and Anakin in for 6 build total. I used Anakin to keep the DS Force down, otherwise the DS would have lost Character, and the game. Typically, LS would have 5 Force, the DS would have 4 Force. LS would bid 5 Force (making the total for Anakin 11). DS would bid 2 Force (making the total for Vader 11). Anakin would retreat, leaving Vader in play with only 2 Force for the turn.
  3. Itchy_c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2002
  4. Jedi_Benji Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2002
    star 4
    Ok, lets see if i can help, To keep your unit out in the arena you need a higher build+force bid then your opponant, so you have to bid force (that you have) to keep the unit out there, and if your opponant beats this then unlucky, you cant bet again, you have to retreat unitl next turn.
  5. Artie-Deco Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 3
    I re-read the rules on contested units, Redneck, and I don't think that's how it works.

    There is one bidding. You are bidding Force points. You can't bid more Force than you have, and you can't bid below what your opponent just bid. The winner is the one whose final Force bid + contested unit's build cost is highest.

    So, let's say you have Anakin with build cost 6 and your opponent has Vader with build cost 9. You have 6 Force points and he has 5. Here's a scenario of how it works:

    - Opponent (Dark) bids 0, per the rules.

    - If you want to keep Anakin in play, you're going to have to bid at least 4 Force. If you only bid three, dark side wins ties and Vader stays. So, let's say you bid 4.

    - Your opponent's current bid is 0. Unfortunately, he only has two choices: raise the bid, or pass. Even though 1 Force point would be enough to bring his total over yours, that's not an option. He can either bid 5 Force (or more) or pass. Let's say he bids 5 Force.

    - Now you have two choices - raise the bid or pass. Even if you bid 6 you can't win, so you pass.

    - Final bids are 4 for you and 5 for your opponent. Your total is 10, your opponent's total is 14. Your opponent pays 5 Force, Vader stays, Anakin retreats.


    Does that help explain it?

  6. RedneckJedi Historian, JediOKC Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 2
    Hehhh... my bad. I was playing it wrong. I learn some nuance of the rules all the time...

    I've never had to contest units before against another player. I left out that one itty-bitty detail of the rules in my playtesting, and concentrated on the final "reckoning" of the Force and build cost total.

    Sorry about that Itchy_C, and thanks Artie-Deco!
  7. Itchy_c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2002
    It's ok Red.

    Good example up above. They need to print something like that in the rule book.
  8. Bacabachaui Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 4
    Actually, you're all wrong :)
    (Technically RedNeck Jedi was the most correct but it was a bit hard to understand)

    As I understand it, the contested unique units was one of the last minute rules made for the game, and the R&D team knew what they meant, but the rulebook was not so clear. So the came out with a clarification here.

    I cut and pasted it below, but it basically works this way:You take the total build cost, add your own personal force bid (can't bid more than you have), and then the player with the highest total wins (DS wins ties). You do not have to raise the bid from the other player. Each player has their own separate force bid pool.

    Example: I have Vader with 9 Build cost. You have Anakin with 5 Build cost. You bid 5, I bid 1 (knowing that at this point we both have a sum of 10 and I will win a tie). You raise your own bid to 6, I raise mine to 2. You raise yours to 7 and I pass. You add your 7 force bid to Anakin's 5 Build Cost, the total is 12. I add my 2 force bid to Vader's 9 Build Cost and the total is 11. Anakin stays and you pay 7 force. Vader retreats and I keep my force. (If I had bid 3, and you passed, then Vader would stay since DS wins ties). If they are both in the arena at the start of the next battle phase (because I put Vader back in during my build step for instance), we do the bidding all over again.

    Once you understand it, it is very easy to get, but due to the fact that the ANH rulebook does not state it clearly and actually seems to imply the scenario Artie-Deco gave, it confuses the heck out of people. I hope they come out with a new rulebook soon that addresses this, because right now, the only place you can find the ruling is in the "Ask Wizrds" feature and not in any rules section. Anyway here is what is says:

    January 8, 2003: I must have read the Contested Unique Units page in the A New Hope rulebook ten times, but I still don't feel like I understand it completely. Can you please explain it more clearly? - Steve, Oregon

    Answer:The rules for contested unique units in the Attack of the Clones and A New Hope rulebooks aren't completely clear and don't cover certain possibilities. So we've rewritten them. We will be posting these in our Rules section on this site for clarification. The new, improved rules for contested unique units are as follows:

    If both players have a unique unit with the same name in battle at any time during the battle phase, the two units are contested.

    When units are contested, players bid Force to win the contest. The bidding starts with the Dark Side player, who makes his or her first Force bid (of 0 or more). Then the Light Side player makes his or her first Force bid (of 0 or more). After that, bidding continues to alternate between the two players until neither player wants to raise his or her Force bid. Players can't bid more Force than they currently have.

    When the bidding ends, each player adds his or her unit's total build cost and final Force bid. (Total build cost includes +1 for each card stacked under the unit.) The player with the higher total wins the bid. (The Dark Side wins ties.)

    The winner of the contest pays Force equal to his or her final Force bid, and his or her unit stays in battle. The losing player pays no Force, and his or her unit retreats without tapping.

    If there is more than one pair of contested units, the Dark Side player chooses which pair to bid on first. - SWTCG Rules Team

  9. Artie-Deco Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 3
    Pardon me while I rant for a moment....

    This contested unit force-bidding stuff was poorly tested by the playtesters. It took me 5 minutes to come up with my scenario above, which obviously had problems but is based on the rules as they are printed in the ANH rulebook.

    WOTC needs to do a better job of documenting all of the errata/clarifications/revisions. As it stands, you may have to look in several different documents to find a rule you're looking for. Come on, WOTC, just publish one "Current Rulings Document" and let it go at that.

    I would have found this rule revision, but the pop-up menu WOTC has on the "Rules" menu item is incomplete. The pop-up menu only lists (1) ANH Rulebook, (2) AOTC Errata/FAQ, (3) 7/1/2002 rulings, (4) SR Errata/Rulings, (5) ANH Errata/Rulings, and (6) BOY Errata/Rulings. But if you click on Rules and go to the actual Rules page, tucked in between the links to the SR Errata and the ANH Errata is a link labeled "Rulebook Revision - Contested Unique Units".

    So, today I'm ticked off at the playtesters for not playtesting this well enough, the documentation people for not consolidating all the rules in one document, and the web designers for not updating their links.

    Anyone else I need to be ticked off against right now? Hmm??

    :)

  10. Itchy_c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2002
    I hear you about the web designers, especially if you find out more about their game on other sites.
  11. Bacabachaui Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 4
    I agree about the site rules and eratta. They need to get one master document together that is not all messed up, like the glossary supplements from Decipher (but it took Juz 5 or 6 years before he updated that on a regular basis). I had to search for the ruling too because I knew it was somewhere, I just couldn't remember where.

    To be fair to the playtesters, there were not many unique units designed such as Vader and Anakin when the rule came out, although they should have thought of it because that is the biggest contesting that goes on.
  12. RedneckJedi Historian, JediOKC Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 2
    Hah! Vindication! I rescind my previous apology! I fart in your general direction! :p I KNEW what the game developers were thinking!

    Just kiddin' about all that! ;) No worries!

    Now 2 hours of playtesting yesterday with Vader and Anakin are up in smoke since I was using the ANH rulebook interpretation.

    Thanks, Baca, and cheers Artie and Itchy!
  13. Itchy_c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2002
    OK, Here is the reply I got from Wizards:

    It is like an auction, But you bid force and add your characters total build cost, so a vader that costs 8 versus an Anakin that cost 4, just to keep the Anakin in the arena they would have to bid 5 force, and then Vader could bid 1 to beat them, and you would continue bidding up until one person stops.
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