ST Continuity problem: Anakin as a ghost in ROTJ may be a clue for something?

something no one has mentioned about where Anakin may have learned about force ghost, perchance he learned it from Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidius, remember the interchange at the Light Theater? while it could be a stretch, Palpatine could have showed Anakin, in an aside, one aspect of keeping a loved one from dying.

Palpatine: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?
Anakin: No.
Palpatine: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith who lived many years ago. He was so powerful and so wise that he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.
Anakin: He could do that? He could actually save people from death?
Palpatine: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Anakin: What happened to him?
Palpitine: He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, and then one night, his apprentice killed him in his sleep. It's ironic that he could save others from death, but not himself.
Anakin: Is it possible to learn this power?
Palpatine: Not from a Jedi.

 

Even if they did call him in and re-shoot it (especially now that it's 10 years later - and they could maybe even apply even more aging makeup/digital makeup to bring him a little more in line with what Vader unmasked looks like) it'd still be a little incongruous as he's the only "young" one there, which contradicts his final turn to the light. Why would he take form as young him when old him was the one who finally restored balance to the force?

The entire thing was done in a slapdash, corner-cutting manner, which is part of the reason people have reacted so poorly to it all these years, even as the idea behind it is a sound one.

Basically, Christensen would have to

1) look older
2) look benevolent
3) wear different clothes

All those things make would mitigate his appearance coming across as mildly confusing.

 

Actually, if they do want to go with spirit Anakin, another option would to recast an older Anakin who is a good actor who looks like he could be Hamill's dad / older Anakin and just have replace both Shaw and Hayden at the end of ROTJ.

 

I'm sure he would be. I also think that if Vader ever shows up in any Anthology films it would be cool if its HC in the costume.

 

I disagree there. He's way too lean and lacks the presence or body language for Vader.

 

I disagree. The costume dose most the work, and can always make him look larger than he is.

 

For the Hayden shot to be better integrated, I think he needs at least one close up shot of him nodding towards Luke and a shot of him looking at Obi-Wan and Yoda. Also - I believe it's true that what's used is costume fitting footage (I certainly don't believe it was shot especially).

The problem with that (although I don't have an issue with the principle) is that it would almost nessesitate re-filming the un-masking scene in order to use the same 'older' Anakin.

 

Yeah, it would. And "continuity" aside, that's a lovely scene and I'd hate to see Shaw scrubbed completely.

 

That'd be my biggest problem with it, too. I mean, logistically, it makes the most sense (so long as they put serious effort into the compositing), but man - Revill's completely gone now already, it'd suck to have no trace of Shaw left, too.

(I also think that reshot Emperor scene in ESB could do with a line of dialog getting trimmed and the contrast being upped a little)

 

I just want a definitive version so that I don't have to keep buying the same films.

 

Darth PJ

But I don't think there needs to be much of a physical similarity between Hayden and Shaw, because some people change dramatically as they get older. Plus, I think it's far more important to maintain consistency within a film than to apply a slavish consistency across the saga. Yes, Shaw and HC don't look much alike. But to me, it's more important that the force ghost look like Shaw, who we just saw dying in Luke's arms. But I respect your opinion on this.

That said, I have one more bone to pick with you.

I've never, and still don't, have a problem with Shaw's makeup job in Vader's death scene. It looks 100% believable to me. In other words, it being **** is entirely subjective. And it's actually the first time I've heard that criticism.

 

I'm not a fan of the ROTS make-up jobs they did on Palps either.

 

Yeah, they could hide a lot of the flabbiness of that make up in shadow, but for whatever reason, they lit him mostly flat. It doesn't even match how they lit him in Phantom Menace, really.

 

Neither was Palp. At Celebration Ian McDiarmid said that the one piece cowl hid his face and made his neck look too thick.

 

I find ROTS Palps and Chewie and SE Hayden irritatingly sloppy. I don't think we'll witness that sloppiness in the ST

 

On the first point... I personally think it’s crucial that there is some visual continuity between Anakin in the PT and Anakin as a force ghost in ROTJ. ROTJ was acceptable as it was prior to the creation of the PT, but within context of 6 films, the appearance of Shaw is as odd as the original Emperor in TESB (when viewed after ROTJ). Like it or not, Anakin Skywalker (as played by HC) is a major/significant character in the films, and it stands to reason that there should be a strong resemblance between the younger and older incarnation. It’s certainly obvious that McGregor was made up/costumed to resemble Guinness. The same principle should apply to Anakin’s depiction. Obviously the films were shot out of order, which is why we’re having this conversation re. what works best for continuity... but given that they were never going to cast and dress an actor based off Shaw’s brief appearance in ROTJ, it’s probably more pragmatic (if one feels there’s a compelling reason) to alter force ghost Anakin in an effort to resemble PT Anakin. I’m less bothered about it being Hayden Christensen himself (although I do think there’s a strong narrative reason for using him), as I am that there’s a close physical resemblance (something as close as McGregor/Guinness)

On the second point... The makeup job in ROTJ, at a technical application level, is fine. However, I was always rather disappointed that he just looked a bit like Humpty Dumpty, a benevolent looking old man... who you could tell was wearing a bald skull cap (although this was remedied somewhat in the SE with a bit of digital manipulation). Personally speaking, if it had been me, I would have been tempted to remove Shaw from the DS scene as well. I think it would have been more powerful (in context of the 6 films) to actually see Hayden’s ravaged and scarred face under the mask... but clearly messing with that scene would have been too controversial. It seems Lucas opted for the less controversial decision to use Hayden at the very end... Also, the success (or not) of Hayden’s inclusion in ROTJ seems somewhat reflective of one’s view of the PT.

 

I believe we've witnessed that already. Chewie to me looks younger in TFA than he did in the OT.... he looks closer to ROTS Chewie (based on the brief shot of him).

 

He looks a little different, and I would have greyed him up, but he's not the awful effort they made in ROTS, which is terrible imo. Cannot stand it.

 

I honestly can't distinguish between the two (ROTS and TFA) in terms of actual quality... but for me, at least there seems to be an attempt to make him look younger in ROTS (although not required granted). Whereas in TFA they seem to have neither made him look older or the same... As with ROTS, what I assume has happened is they’ve actually designed and manufactured a more ‘lifelike’/better costume... and ‘better’, in terms of quality, isn’t necessarily the same as ‘identical’ to his original look.

It's a bit like Palpatine in ROTS (as mentioned above) i.e. the makeup and prosthetics are infinitely better than those used in ROTJ, at a technical level, but I prefer his look in ROTJ... primarily because he looks more skeletal and decayed (which I believe is largely a serendipitous result of inferior makeup application techniques in the 80's).

 

Christensen is just far too derided to play any further part in the franchise. The reason they asked Ewan back is cause he still looked good despite the script, which just isn't the case with Christensen. If they need Anakin again, they're going to recast it with some serious critically acclaimed type actor, which isn't a big deal since so many actors have played this character already.

 

Really? He looks like a an exceptionally expensive fan-made effort in ROTS. Distractingly wide of the mark. And I can't stand ROTS Palpatine either. Oh well, different strokes!

 

I've always said the HC hate comes from a vocal internet minority of angry "Lucas raped my childhood" SW nerds; I don't think it is at all a general hate among the movie going public.

You can look at it a lot of different ways in terms of old vs young looking force ghost. Can he still look young because that was when he was last good before his turn (goodness by canon as we know it is required to be a force ghost I believe)? Does it have to be his look when he died (but then he would have to be mangled)?

When it comes down to it, nothing is required since one could presumably appear any way since they are no longer part of the material/physical world, we just want them to look fitting in the movie.

Movie technology can do pretty amazing things with aging someone these days, so I don't see why they wouldn't use Hayden even if they wanted someone that looks older; I absolutely see this as a continuity issue. Whether rigid core fans want to hate him or not, he is the embodiment of Anakin as we know him in SW films; to imply otherwise is either wildly illogical, wishful thinking, or both. Say what you will about him in AOTC, he improved a lot in ROTS, and carried the role in a satisfactory if not good way at the end. Since he is alive (and I'm sure willing to take part), there really isn't a good reason to not use him (in the bigger picture I mean, I'm sure some here wouldn't like him no matter what), and there are reasonably solid strikes against having someone else in that role given he was Anakin in 2 movies. And as I was saying, it would help to tie all 3 sagas together to have him, which this movie should to some degree do (JJ has verbally acknowledged this).

 

To be honest I'm not even sure what "exceptionally expensive fan-made effort" means? Are you suggesting that it looks like it wasn't made by proffesionals working in production? Even PM thought it was a marked improvement... and I got that 1st hand from him... although he could have just been lying to impress me.

 

I think it looked like a lot of professional skill went into the wrong direction aesthetically.

 

I think stills of Chewie from ROTS look worse than he actually looked in the film, though I do agree that he looked better in the OT, and I think Palps looked just okay. I think the real problem with Palps in ROTS was that his face wasn't in shadow like it is in the OT and eps I & II. Some good shadowing would've hid some of the neck puffiness and given him a slightly more gaunt look. His face was just too bright.