Continuity with the special effects = NONE!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by hawk, Sep 21, 2002.

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  1. guittarjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    Right on Tokyo,the space battle in ROTJ is nothing short of magnificent.
  2. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    So let me see if I've got this right. GuittarJedi and TokyoXtreme feel that the OT is superior and the PT sucks, right? Good. I didn't get it the first 8 BILLION times they've said it.

  3. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "So let me see if I've got this right. GuittarJedi and TokyoXtreme feel that the OT is superior and the PT sucks, right? Good. I didn't get it the first 8 BILLION times they've said it."

    why does that opinion deserve any less repeating than any of the other 982327643 opinions that are repeated every day on this forum? because you dont agree with it? open up that mind, brother.
  4. darth_yoda14 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 1
    If GL toned down the special effects of the PT to look more likr the OT, people would complain that the effects weren't good enough. I personally love the special effects.

    Its kinda like the 70's and 80's. Take cars, for example. In the 70's they were bright and flashy and looked cool. Kinda like PT. In the 80's they were kinda dull and boring even though it was later in time. Not saying the OT ships are boring, but its not so flashy. In the OT they were also in a time of war, so the ships and technology was more worn.
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    George knows what he is doing.
  6. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    >>>why does that opinion deserve any less repeating than any of the other 982327643 opinions that are repeated every day on this forum? because you dont agree with it? open up that mind, brother. <<<

    So are you saying repeating yourself is an opening of the mind and is just as valid as any other post?
  7. macoco Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 3
    There are great nuanced performances in AOTC. Strip it of its effects and what have you got? Hayden Christensen dominating the screen. Padme dominating Anakin. Ewan MacGregor on many green stages, talking to plungerheads.
  8. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The prequal movies are relying on too much fx and have almost nothing else to back them up, with an exception of the performance of Ewan, liam and christopher lee and ian mcdirmid.

    Don't forget Hayden Christenson!

    Anyway, I think you just argued yourself in a circle. "The prequels suck because, strip away the effects and all you have are brilliant performances from some damn good actors! Er...wait..."
  9. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    So let me see if I've got this right. GuittarJedi and TokyoXtreme feel that the OT is superior and the PT sucks, right? Good. I didn't get it the first 8 BILLION times they've said it.

    Oh, is that what they've been trying to say?
  10. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Lucas has nothing to do with the sci-fi genre and lumping Star Wars in with the sci-fi genre is one of the biggest misnomers of all-time.

    Star Wars is fantasy adventure, not science fiction...arrrgggg.


    I agree 100% on this, Kryatt, and I understand the frustration. There IS a distinction. It was partly why I was getting a bit annoyed earlier when 2001 got tossed into the mix and it sure wasn't the first time that that film has gotten tossed in, because I think it just isn't that comparable at all. LOTR really has more in common with SW than 2001 or Star Trek.

    But the last page or so seems to have turned into a debate on how much special effects have contributed to the success of SW.

    I think to say that the effects are just an afterthought and that the intense acting or intriguing plot of either trilogy is a bit off just like it's off to go the other way and say that special effects are the only reason that SW is what it is.

    I think Star Wars as a whole is a lightning in the bottle phenomenon where multiple elements have come together to make it unique.

    As far as the narrative goes, I don't think it really has to do with incredible acting or an intricate plot as much as it has to do with tapping into mythological elements that are quite far-reaching and universal in their appeal. I also believe that mythological imagery, re-invented in the SW context, also plays a big part.

    I think the special effects are primarily a vehicle to deliver a fantastical story. Whether its models or CG, I think is largely irrelevant for the most part. Sometimes and god forbid, I think there are things put in just for fun or "whimsy" as GL referred to it. But what's wrong with having fun in a SW movie? Like it or not, these are aimed at kids with their PG rating just like Harry Potter books are kid's books but people of all ages read and enjoy them anyway.

    I actually find it difficult to see how people can say that the OT is more restrained. I think age really has made people simply used to it and compared to advances in visual effects, the OT seems mild in comparison.

    But if you unlearn what you have learned (man, I've got to stop doing that) the OT is just as "in your face". It's just doing it with more traditional methods but still doing it nonetheless.

    If you take the amazing visuals out of an amazing visual story, it would have bombed, big-time, and we wouldn't be here talking about it, just like taking away the underlying mythological element would have had the same effect.

    The sum is really bigger than the parts.
  11. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Why does that opinion deserve any less repeating than any of the other 982327643 opinions that are repeated every day on this forum? because you dont agree with it? open up that mind, brother."

    Everyone?s entitled to his or her opinion. Some people don?t like the PT. Hey, rock on! We heard you.

    But merely repeating the same tired mantra ad nauseum isn?t contributing to this or any other discussion ("discussion" is the purpose of a forum, ya?). In fact, constantly barking about how the PT sucks has one purpose: to END discussion and show contempt for those who don?t share your views. I find it particularly curious that a small group of "fans" who obviously don?t LIKE the PT are here, in the AOTC forum, day after day reminding us over and over again how terrible these movies are and how much better the OT is. What is the point? I was in line to see AOTC when a carload of frat boys drove by and yelled, "Star Wars sucks!" Their words had one purpose: to try and upset the good time we were having (it didn?t work). The bashing going on here serves the same purpose and it?s getting old.
  12. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    DarthToeJam, I feel the same way. They say they're here to "discuss" how the PT could have been better or to defend the original trilogy. All I really see though are variatons of "The prequels suck and so does Lucas. Here's why:" repeated many times over.

    If you follow certain posters and read what they post, it's quite obvious they're only here because they like to antagonize. If you TRUELY disliked the prequels, I'd hope you'd move on instead of talking about it for months.
  13. Darth_Tarpals Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    It's what seperates the bashers from the rest. They feel they HAVE to go on and on and on for months, and possibly even years on end, about how this sucked, and that was good, instead of LETTING GO.
  14. macoco Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 3
    For real, Darth_Tarpals!
    This movie is absolutely fantastic and the the CONTINUITY is flawless as far as I can see. Wonderful performances, great ideas, FX that have a compatible look to the OT.

    I believe that movies like TPM and AOTC are too much for certain people to handle...and they can't stand it. Some people don't like movies that require thinking and that stimulate the imagination. Most movies do the thinking for you. The prequels are drenched in intellectual content that can leave one pondering its implications for days. It is loaded with emotional content (if you happen to care about Padme and Anakin). Hayden C gives just about the best performance in it, on a level with any of the great SW portrayals. Of course Lee and MacGregor give outstanding performances...remember their main co stars are Yoda, Taun We, Lama Su, Dexter Jettster, Nute Gunray and Poggle the Lesser: Digital creations to be sure, but are they really FX? No, they are characters whose interactions with great thespians like Lee and MacGregor are quite plausible...the continuity to Episode IV will be seamless in this regard because of Episode IV's realism and the simple fact that we are not reintroduced to these characters. Thinking of them as characters not fx. Of course they're not real. But it was very easy for me to believe Taun We was chillin' with Obi and that Yoda was fighting with Dooku. The continuity is sustained because the look metamorphoses from a fantastical idealistic look gradually toward increased realism.
  15. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "It's what seperates the bashers from the rest. They feel they HAVE to go on and on and on for months, and possibly even years on end, about how this sucked, and that was good, instead of LETTING GO."

    and you can let go just as easily by not reading the posts or simply ignoring them. unfortunatley some people here think they need to insult other fans of star wars because they disagree with their opinion.

    there are many threads here with people repeating the "same mantra" of this scene was great and that scene was great and on and on. why not tell them not to repeat themselves too? as for me i just dont bother to post in those threads because its pointless to try and ruin someones enjoyment of the film.

    this is something so many of you "gushers" dont seem to get: i am not telling anyone not to like the films, i am simply stating my opinions as part of an ongoing discussion. if i have to repeat myself to get my point across i will, just as many times as others repeat things like "why are you trying to ruin others enjoyment of the films" or "its your fault you dont like the films, not the films fault" or "if you dont like the films why are you posting here".
    see? you are just as repetitive but you cant see past your own bias. the funniest thing about all of it is you do exactly what you complain about.

    im glad you are enjoying the PT, good for you! i did not and i am just as right to voice my complaints about them as you are to voice your enjoyment. if you dont like what you read, MOVE ON OR IGNORE IT.


    open your mind and try to see things a little more objectively and im sure you will have an easier time with people you dont agree with.

    or just keep repeating your complaints about people you disagree with.

    why is that so hard to understand?
  16. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    "unfortunatley some people here think they need to insult other fans of star wars because they disagree with their opinion."

    You're hardly the victim here, DrE. No one's insulted you. Speaking for myself (which is all I can do), I'm just tired of reading discussions in this forum that get inturrupted by three of four guys who constantly bark about how the PT sucks.

    "there are many threads here with people repeating the "same mantra" of this scene was great and that scene was great and on and on. why not tell them not to repeat themselves too?

    Maybe because this is an AOTC forum. Where else are fans suppose to go to share their enthusiasm for a film they like? If you hate the film, cool dude, whatever. But why bother coming to a place where people who LIKE something gather if your only objective is to bash it whenever possible? It makes as much sense as going to an anti-Jar Jar website and trying to convince someone that Gungans are cool. It's a misuse of energy.

    "its pointless to try and ruin someones enjoyment of the film."

    Agreed. So why do you keep trying? You like the OT films better. Cool. There's an OT forum nearby, I believe. I might even join you there. We'll hug and talk about our Wookies.

    "this is something so many of you "gushers" dont seem to get: i am not telling anyone not to like the films, i am simply stating my opinions as part of an ongoing discussion."

    By repeatedly saying "the PT sucks" you are deliberately throwing cold water on the enthusiam of fans who gathered in a PT forum to discuss the films. You shouldn't be surprised or act all hurt when people start calling you on it.

    "if i have to repeat myself to get my point across i will"

    To what end?!? You're in an AOTC forum! You think you're going to convert anyone here? You think someone who liked the film is going to suddenly have an epiphany and change their opinion? Dude, I got your "point" a long time ago. I carved into the woodwork on my desk. "The PT sucks!" I'll cherish it always.

    "open your mind and try to see things a little more objectively and im sure you will have an easier time with people you dont agree with."

    What is so open about blanket statements about how much the PT's suck? What is "open" about telling people that something they like is bad in a place designed to bring those people together? I have great respect for thoughtful criticism and even so-called "gushers" will admit to not liking EVERYTHING about the PT. Discussion is welcome. It's why I come here. Differing opinions are what makes life beautiful. I'm simply responding to the tone and frequency of those few who seem to delight in bashing these film in this forum. If I went to a frat party and started calling all the frat boys "a--holes", I shouldn't be surprised if one of them decided to take a poke at me.
  17. hoth-nudist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2000
    star 3
    Bashers have just as much right to this forum as gushers. If you dont like the bashing topics Darthtoejam, gomer and co. ....then stay out of that topic! If your tired of hearing our points about why the PT in inferior, go to a topic you feel is superior! Nobody has forced you gushers to come into these basher topics. By simply reading the topic and CHOOSIING not to click your mouse, you can easily avoid your self-inflicted "damper on SW". Hawk has a point I tend to agree with, and he has the freedom to express it in this forum along with Dr.E myself Krayt etc. I see plenty of gusher topics that support the film. If I dont like them, I stay away from them. I dont barge in and whine to the gushers: "Hey your ruining this for all us bashers, I sick of blah, blah blah. If you dont like our points fine, Im game to a friendly debate, not to all this complaining about how bashers are ruining your fun. Now back to topic, IMO coruscant is way overkill with all that goes on. Its too panoramic and is . How can one watch the PT with all these big time panoramic shots then watch the OT where until ROTJ there are next to zero panoramic shots, thus leaving one perplexed due to one of many tremendous contrasts of continuity. Are we to think coruscant has disappeared and absolutely NOTHING is going on there during ANH, ESB, until the small celebration shot in ROTJ SE?
  18. Darth_Terrell Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 2
    "i did not"

    It boggles the mind that you waste so much time talking about something you hate. Maybe you need to heed your own advice. Move along. Ignore it. Don't go see Episode III. Don't buy the AOTC DVD. Don't buy the Episode III. Just forget about the prequels and go enjoy something else. Just give up on them. If you didn't like the first two, it's easy to guess you won't like Episode III. So skip it. Go see whatever else is playing.

    The only thing I can agree with you on is the original trilogy were classics, and amazing in their own right. They don't need to be torn down in order to build the prequels up. I think the prequels stand on their own quite fine.

    I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to prove. I don't care for LOTR. But I sure as hell don't go over to the LOTR forums and bash LOTR. Why? Because I don't give a damn, and have more important things to do than waste 2 seconds commenting on something I don't like in the first place. Why go over there and piss in LOTR fan's corn flakes? That would make no sense.

    "What happened to the technology? What happened to the cloning? What happened to the huge armies of droids and clones? Why do we only see smaller (more realistic) armies when clones or droids should be plentiful? Where are the curved and double-bladed lightsabers? "

    Have you not heard anything of what Lucas stated? There was more technology, grand cities, fancy vehicles, and fancy clothes. Why? Because it's the height of the Republic. All of these things are importan. The reason they don't exist in the OT is simply because the Empire has destroyed the Republic. They have a stranglehold on technology, not allowing anyone to have that kind of technology. Fashion no longer matters. Survival matters. The Rebels have to used whatever was left over. They had to clothe themselves with regular garmits rather than fancy clothers. They hid because they were hiding from the empire. I can go on and on.
  19. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Another post ignored in the midst of a "gusher"/"basher" skirmish. Sniff. :( 8-}

    How can one watch the PT with all these big time panoramic shots then watch the OT where until ROTJ there are next to zero panoramic shots, thus leaving one perplexed due to one of many tremendous contrasts of continuity. Are we to think coruscant has disappeared and absolutely NOTHING is going on there during ANH, ESB, until the small celebration shot in ROTJ SE?

    If you want to be really anal retentive, we can just talk about visual consistency within the OT itself as you allude to.

    From ANH to ROTJ, there is a definite progression in effects technology (not to mention budgets) and you can see several examples of things in ROTJ that probably weren't even possible with ANH. Why not tear down the OT? Personally, I'm getting tired of sounding like I'm ragging on the OT just to prop up the prequels, both of which I like, because that's not what I mean to do. Rather, you've got to have some serious blinders on to gloss over or simply ignore discrepancies like these within the OT but tear apart the PT (a story that starts 30 years prior) down to the last detail for a perceived lack of consistency.

    I'm an advocate for seeing the original cuts on DVD but I'm also looking forward to the final cut of the saga with the ultimate editions which should address many of these concerns and make the entire saga much more consistent.

    No Coruscant in the OT until ROTJ SE? Well, Ian McDiarmid will be hanging around for Episode III, I'm pretty sure that we'll see some Coruscant scenes with the Emperor in the ultimate edition for the OT, as an example.

    And there's an explanation within the narrative with a 20 year gap which actually makes a lot of sense.

    The galaxy is a much smaller and desolate place by the time we get around to Episode IV. The OT should feel more beat up and smaller in scope.

    And while we have 2 out of 3, we're missing a huge piece of the final picture in Episode III. Is it too much to ask to reserve some judgments and criticisms until 2005 when the whole thing is actually finished?



  20. Darth_Mittens Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2002
    "And while we have 2 out of 3, we're missing a huge piece of the final picture in Episode III. Is it too much to ask to reserve some judgments and criticisms until 2005 when the whole thing is actually finished?"

    I absoultely agree, how can anyone comment on continuity when were missing the vital link.

  21. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Maybe because this is an AOTC forum. Where else are fans suppose to go to share their enthusiasm for a film they like?"

    where else are star wars fans supposed to share their dissapointment about the saga?

    what is the problem?

    people are here to express their opinions about star wars. stop trying to police personal expression just because you dont agree with what is being said.

    get over it already because its not going to end any more than people sharing their enthusiasm.

    is it that disconcerting to you to read contrary opinions? if it is then i dont know how to help you other than tell you to ignore it and move on.
  22. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    where else are star wars fans supposed to share their dissapointment about the saga?

    Okay, although I'm assuming it wasn't intentional, that just sounds funny when you read it out loud. That may be a new contender for a signature. [face_laugh]

    But seriously, how about a Matrix or LOTR forum? If there are fans and obviously, there are, who feel like the saga has just gone completely out the window and nothing GL does is any good anymore, there is a lot of quality choice these days.

    It's kinda like a Trek fan who only likes the original series but despises anything that's come after. I mean, wouldn't it be a bit sad if such a person was still showing up 40 years later to slam the rest of the shows and the films in their respective threads in a Trek forum?

    "Thanks, Grandpa Kirk. The '60s show certainly was special and started the whole thing but do you have to constantly beat people over the head with it, crap all over everything else, and complain about how Rick Berman has "raped" your childhood? You've been doing it since the Internet actually went online at all."

    Maybe it really is time to move on to something that you can enjoy because it's been nearly 20 years since GL has done anything even close to right in the eyes of such fans.

    Personally, I could care less if people want to hang around and trash the prequels. If they want to focus their spare energy and time discussing movies that they despise, that's their business.

    But as DrE indicated, if there's not much else to it and it's just a repetitive mantra that people have heard a gazillion times before, you will start to get tuned out and ignored.








  23. Hammered_Hammerhead Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2002
    star 1
    I think the vastness of the PT really nicely compliments the "smaller" scale of the OT and makes the OT that much more dramatic. They live together, to mutual advantage.

    But what continues to make me smile about the PT is the frequent use of (what look like) obvious "old style" effects - like when the Nemoidians blow up the cruiser the Jedi arrived in at the beginning of TPM and the wheel tank things in AOTC that shoot sparkler rockets right out of a Godzilla movie.

    I was especially pleased by the cruiser in TPM with it's "straight outta the 80's" destruction of an obvious model. Ah yess, I thought, this is Star Wars.
  24. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Seriously, Dude. Where's my speeder?
  25. Chris2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1998
    star 4
    The OT films really aren't in much FX continuity with each other...
    There's a definite FX evolution in the original films....especially between ANH and ESB. After all, the budget for ESB was three times that of ANH!

    In ANH, for instance, the MILLENIUM FALCON has a fairly limited range of motion. It just moves forward. However, in ESB(Most memorabily in the Asteroid chase) and ROTJ, we see the FALCON doing all kinds of flips and what-not. The ESB/ROTJ model of the Falcon is also different. The Falcon as seen in ANH is also more of a tan shade, while the later models adapt a slightly greyer shade. The cockpit set is also very different-the ESB/ROTJ set has a door and more controls. For more subtle changes in the FALCON's design throughout the OT, check out this site:

    http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/mf/changes.htm

    Vader's armor, Lightsabers, Blockade Runner/Correlian Corvette ,the Star Destroyers and TIE fighters also go through some subtle design alterations from one film to the next. For example, take a look at ANH's destroyer:

    [image=http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/chron/isdface1a.jpg]

    Compared to that of a Destroyer from ESB:

    [image=http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/chron/isdface2a.jpg]

    and Vader:

    [image=http://www.theforce.net/multimedia/archive/Images/Classic_Trilogy/Characters/Darth_Vader/Miscellaneous/dv29.jpg]

    Thinner, less detailed, smaller helmet Vader

    [image=http://www.theforce.net/multimedia/archive/Images/Classic_Trilogy/Characters/Darth_Vader/Miscellaneous/dv31.jpg]
    Bulkier Vader from the sequels






    I think it's important to add that the scale of the ships in the PT is also subtly smaller. Out of all the ships in the PT, only the TF warships come close to matching the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. Nothing in the PT so far is on the scale of say, Executor or the Death Stars.


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