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Contradicting Episode V

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by Mortimer_Nerdly, Apr 27, 2003.

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  1. Mortimer_Nerdly

    Mortimer_Nerdly Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 19, 2002
    "You will go to the Dagobah System. There you will learn from Yoda. The Jedi Master who instructed me."

    Ghost of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode V

    In Episode I, Obi-Wan's master was Qui-Gon Ginn. Does Episode I contadict what Obi Wan's ghost said in Episode V to Luke?
     
  2. YodaJeff

    YodaJeff Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 18, 2001
    Yoda still trained Obi-Wan when he was a youngling, similar to how we see Yoda training other younglings in AOTC.

    So, it was true... from a certain point of view. :p
     
  3. Mortimer_Nerdly

    Mortimer_Nerdly Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 19, 2002
    I figured that that was the case.
     
  4. Daughter_Of_TheForce

    Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 1, 2001
    Straight answer, with no explanation - yes

    Complicated answer, with explanation -

    Take your pick:

    1) No, because Yoda probably did train him at a young age before he was assigned as padawan to Qui-Gon (see AOTC).

    2) No, because at that moment Obi-Wan wasn't being specific. "The Jedi Master" could be taken to mean he was emphasizing Yoda's rank instead of meaning "the one and only and no other".

    3) No, because when ESB was made, Qui-Gon hadn't been created.
     
  5. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE

    ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 27, 2001
    What Daughter_Of_TheForce said.

    From a technical standpoint, the character and importaince of Qui-Gon had not yet been created.

    From a storypoint view, Yoda trains all padawans until a certain age, in which they are taken on by another master for the rest of their training. So Yoda was trained by both Yoda and Qui-Gon.
     
  6. Gay-LenKenobi

    Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Knight star 5

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    Sep 20, 2000
    There is also the point that Yoda continued to instruct nearly every Jedi even after they were made knights and masters. He was advising Obi-Wan regarding Anakin and the mystery of Kamino (younglings and star map scene) in AOTC.

    So instead of explaining all of that to Luke as he was passing out, Obi kept it short and persuasive.
     
  7. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 18, 2002
    Just as it is proper for you to say, "Seek out Mrs. Schnegle, the 4th grade teacher who instructed me," which in no way implies that Mrs. Schnegle is the only person from you've received instruction, it was proper for Ben to say, "Seek out Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me."

    Due to incomplete knowledge, many STAR WARS fans assumed, incorrectly as it turns out, that Yoda was Obi-Wan's exclusive mentor when this is clearly not the case. At the same time, who else was Ben going to tell Luke to find?
     
  8. Darth Jamus

    Darth Jamus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 1, 2000
    Why would Obi-Wan go through the trouble of telling Luke:

    "You must seek out Qui-Gon Jinn, the Jedi Master who instructed me. Wait, he has died. You must go to the Dagobah system, there you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

    How dumb would it be for Obi-Wan to mention those who have passed away when the only living Jedi Master that can now be of help is Yoda, who DID train Obi-Wan at one point?
     
  9. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

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    Aug 24, 2002
    1) No, because Yoda probably did train him at a young age before he was assigned as padawan to Qui-Gon (see AOTC).

    2) No, because at that moment Obi-Wan wasn't being specific. "The Jedi Master" could be taken to mean he was emphasizing Yoda's rank instead of meaning "the one and only and no other".

    3) No, because when ESB was made, Qui-Gon hadn't been created.


    All I have to say about this is...















    There is nothing else to say you summed it up really well DOTF. :)
     
  10. rpeugh

    rpeugh Force Ghost star 4

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    Apr 10, 2002
    Well, in this forum I made a thread asking if Quigon Jinn is technically at the rank of Jedi Master. (I know Obiwan is not technically a Jedi Master in AOTC). If Quigon is not technically a Jedi Master, than that would make it even less of a contradiction.
     
  11. appleseed

    appleseed Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 5, 2002
    I have all ideas that Qui-Gon was a Jedi Master. But as for ESB, it's been well answered here.
     
  12. Quixotic-Sith

    Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 22, 2001
    What Daughter said.

    About the "Was Qui-Gon really a Master", I think there an EU story which says yes. I never read it, never intend to do so either, but I'm pretty sure it describes him as having trained someone else first.
     
  13. Esplin9466

    Esplin9466 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 27, 2002
    I think that was the Visual Dictionary or some other reference book like that. Qui-Gon's first apprentice, a female, was trained to Knighthood, earning Qui-Gon the rank of Jedi Master. His second apprentice, Xanatos, turned dark. Obi-Wan was his third apprentice.
     
  14. coney_1_kenobi

    coney_1_kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 2, 2002
    Episode V actually backs up TPM in this way too (or the other way around)

    When Yoda says "my own counsel i will decide who's ready"(something like that) in ESB, He also says it in TPM. Also, Ben says, "was i any different."-refering to how Luke believed he was ready and he was reckless. Well in TPM, Obi-wan says "i am ready to face the trials"- paralleling ESB ( i thought that was clever)
     
  15. C-3P0

    C-3P0 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 20, 2001
    I think this was one of the "contradictions" a lot of people were jumping on in 1999.

    I think AOTC went a long way in cleaning this up.

    I'm also willing to bet that some of the other "contradictions" will be explained in Episode 3. (Droids memory, etc.)
     
  16. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    I, for one, still don't buy the Yoda with the kids as a correction to this error, though. It looks like to me as if Yoda takes an hour out of his busy day to teach kids basic lightsaber. If Ben took a saber class from Yoda, that doesn't make Yoda the Jedi Master who instructed him, just instructed him -- in sabers. It fits with ESB, from a certain point of view.

    Actually, I thought of a cool way that GL could have handled this very nicely, without changing the story flow of TPM at all. In the scene where QGJ and Ben were arguing about AS's fate (before going to Naboo again), he could have thrown in some dialog that could go something like this:

    Ben: "We can't bring the boy with us, you heard what the Council said."

    QGJ: "They said only that I was not to instruct him. The boy is the choosen one, you must trust me on this, Obi-wan"

    Ben: "But Master Yoda..."

    QGJ: "Is no longer your mentor. If you will not trust me, my young padawan, you will at least obey me."
     
  17. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 18, 2002
    Ben: "We can't bring the boy with us, you heard what the Council said."

    QGJ: "They said only that I was not to instruct him. The boy is the choosen one, you must trust me on this, Obi-wan"

    Ben: "But Master Yoda..."

    QGJ: "Is no longer your mentor. If you will not trust me, my young padawan, you will at least obey me."


    Interesting idea. But in TPM, we did get:

    QGJ: Keep your focus here and now where it belongs.

    Ben: But master Yoda said I should be mindful of the force.

    QGJ: But not at the expense of the moment.

    In other words, it is implied that Yoda was/is Obi-Wan's mentor, even if it's not explicity stated.
     
  18. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>>QGJ: "Is no longer your mentor. If you will not trust me, my young padawan, you will at least obey me."

    Surely that would make the end of TPM look more like Obi Wan was just following orders in training Anakin, rather than putting his faith in Qui Gon's belief in him?
     
  19. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    In other words, it is implied that Yoda was/is Obi-Wan's mentor, even if it's not explicity stated.

    But I only get that from Lucas's off camera commentaries. Meaning, he said that's why he added that line, but when I hear that line, all I hear is "but master Yoda said..." I don't here "but when Yoda was training me, he said..." In all honest, if TPM had been the first SW movie I'd ever seen or knew anything about, I would never in all my viewings suspected that Ben once trained with Yoda. I'd wager that I wouldn't be alone on that, but we'll never know for sure.

    SRN, it all depends on the death scene and follow up scene. Ben is free to make his own choices when QGJ is gone and he is his own knight. As you recall, Ben and QGJ already "kissed and made up" on Naboo.
     
  20. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 18, 2002
    To be honest, your "...is no longer your mentor" line probably would have the same lack of impact on first time viewers.

    Or you can simply look at Obi-Wan's comment in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK as one of those interesting revelations for first time viewers where they'll say, "Cool! So Yoda was once Obi-Wan's mentor. I never knew that!" Then when they're rewatching THE PHANTOM MENACE, they'll catch Obi-Wan's "But master Yoda said..." and everything will fall into place.

    I think Lucas intentionally makes it so his movies have to be rewatched at least once before everything clicks.
     
  21. C-3P0

    C-3P0 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 20, 2001
    I think this "inconsistency" will be expanded on in episode 3.


    In TPM there was one line.

    In AOTC we see Yoda teaching, and Obi-Wan specifically seeking his advice.

    We know from the OT that only Yoda snd Obi-Wan survive the purge.

    I wouldn't be surpised for them to have another scene to reinforce their Master/Trainee relationship.

    :D
     
  22. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    To be honest, your "...is no longer your mentor" line probably would have the same lack of impact on first time viewers.

    I doubt it. "...is no longer..." can only be an accurately used statement if "...at one time..." is also a true statement. "But master yoda said..." simply means "But master yoda said..." and can be true whether or not "...at one time he was your mentor..." is true or not.

    Holding back the revelation that Ben once trained with Yoda until ESB serves no purpose that I can see, which is why I don't see why that info needs to be held back for dramatic effect. Why not mention it early, or why mention it at all at that point?


    I think this "inconsistency" will be expanded on in episode 3.

    I hope so, Threepio (I can call you Threepio, can't I?), but I'm doubting it. I think GL is happy with the line from QGJ in TPM and the scene with the kids as being enough explaination.
     
  23. C-3P0

    C-3P0 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 20, 2001
    You can call me anything, as long as you say it with respect. ;)
     
  24. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    "Thou shalt not take the name of C-3PO in vain" ;)
     
  25. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>But I only get that from Lucas's off camera commentaries.

    You could have read it here from people's speculation before the DVD came out... (I remember feeling vindicated when I first heard that commentary...)

    >>>In AOTC we see Yoda teaching, and Obi-Wan specifically seeking his advice.

    And he calls Dooku his old padawan... Is there any Jedi he hasn't taught?

    I don't think it's a "revelation" that will be left until ESB, but simply a fact that Yoda trains all the Jedi before they get handed out as an apprentice. Maybe it's part of the job of the head of the council (although there's nothing in the films to say that Yoda's in charge, come to think of it... maybe he's just head of Jedi School?)
     
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