Contradicting Episode V

You could have read it here from people's speculation before the DVD came out... (I remember feeling vindicated when I first heard that commentary...)

I think Lucas said it before the DVD, but anyway, yes, I was guessing Lucas through in that line to explain away the ESB line even before I heard Lucas say it, but the fact is, it doesn't mean Ben was trained by Yoda, it merely means "but master yoda said...". So, without talking to Lucas, we're left scratching our heads wonder just what the heck Ben was talking about in ESB or making up assumations on brief and vague dialog. Only the fans will research this to find out what Lucas really meant, the general public is left wondering.


And he calls Dooku his old padawan... Is there any Jedi he hasn't taught?

Actually, this complicates the issue even further. A master can have one padawan, no more (as we learn in TPM). So the kids Yoda was teaching in AOTC were not padawans, so that makes me question whether Ben was ever Yoda's padawan at all.

 

True, but the term padawan is never used in ESB.

Obi-wan says that Yoda instructed him. That doesn't neccessarily mean they had a Master/Padawan relationship.

 

Exactly. The word "instructed" seems to imply a casual relationship. If he had referred to Yoda as "my mentor" or "the Jedi master who taught me everything I know" then we'd have some problems, but simply saying "the Jedi master who instructed me" does not indicate any kind of specific relationship. You can receive instruction from someone without them necessarily being your close, personal mentor.

 

Yoda instructed him at one point as he does all students so it still works out.

Maybe he meant to say the Jedi Master who instructed me to tell you this, but that is unlikely just putting ideals around the boards.

 

>>>>A master can have one padawan, no more (as we learn in TPM). So the kids Yoda was teaching in AOTC were not padawans, so that makes me question whether Ben was ever Yoda's padawan at all.

Actually, TPM tells us that they can only have one apprentice at a time, and Yoda calls one of the younglings "padawan" in AoTC ("The padawan is correct.") So "padawan" seems to mean a more general "learner" rather than the specific stage of a one-on-one apprentice that they go on to become before becoming a true Jedi Knight.

>>>So, without talking to Lucas, we're left scratching our heads wonder just what the heck Ben was talking about in ESB or making up assumations on brief and vague dialog.

Not really, so long as it's clear by the end of Episode III that Yoda trains everyone. (Which, being the wisest of the Jedi, would certainly make sense- that he wants to "pass on what he has learnt".)

As for the audience having to make up assumptions based on brief and vague dialogue- it's hardly the first time that has happened in Star Wars. Personally, I like that kind of thing- it's what keeps the films interesting after you've seen them a hundred and one times. (What is the Dark Side, exactly? )

Incidentally, is "Padawan" a real word? I remember an interview with Liam Neeson before TPM where he said that he knew what George was going for with the talk of padawans and something else (possibly to do with the prophecy, I can't remember...)

 

I think each Padawan (Jedi trainee) is instructed by one Jedi up thru age 15 or so, then apprenticed to another Jedi to go out into the galaxy on missions and learn how to deal with the rest of the galaxy. At the very least, I would expect that each member of the council instructs a group of Padawans (Like the Bear Clan Yoda instructed in AOTC)until they are ready for apprenticeship. (This is starting to sound a lot like Hogwart's)

 

True, but the term padawan is never used in ESB.

Obi-wan says that Yoda instructed him. That doesn't neccessarily mean they had a Master/Padawan relationship.

Yes, I do realize this, and I have taken note of this before. In fact, now we do not know what the relationship is between Yoda and Ben. ESB doesn't say he wasn't a padawan, it doesn't say he was. I've heard it say that a "Padawan Learner" is not the same as "Padawan" and that at a younger age, an apprencited is a "Learner" and may be instructed by a different master than he is at an older age -- thus, Obi-wan may have been trained by Yoda, then by QGJ. But this is speculation.

The first element of confusion in the ESB revelation is that we don't know what the relationship was. "The Jedi master who instructed me" could mean anything. We know one thing, we know it doesn't mean that Ben spent the last years of his apprenticeship going with Yoda on adventures and learning the arts of the Jedi from him at that time -- we know that it doesn't mean this because of what we saw in TPM. This still doesn't tell us much.

The second point of confusion comes from the context that Ben gives this revelation in ESB, which is where the argument for continuity errors comes into play. Ben is instructing Luke to find a Jedi Master who will teach him to be a Jedi. The nature of this relationship is clearly a master/apprentice relationship. When Ben instructs Luke to find Yoda, he qualifies this Yoda character (who Luke has never heard of before) by saying also received training from Yoda. This endorsement only makes sense if he (Ben) received similar training (similar to what Luke will be recieving) from Yoda himself. But the TPM shows us that Ben was learning from QGJ how to become a Jedi, both from receiving wisedom and from practical experience. They seemed close, so they were probably together for some time, not a short amount of time, either. What TPM and AOTC never show us is that he recieved from Yoda the same kind of training that Yoda imparted to Luke. So why would Ben give him this endorsement? Why not say "there you will learn from Yoda, a great mentor to many of the Jedi of my time" or "there you will learn from Yoda, the oldest and wisest of the Jedi." He didn't say those things, though, he gave Luke a personal endorsement based off his own experience. But the PT does not show us this endorsement was warranted.


Not really, so long as it's clear by the end of Episode III that Yoda trains everyone.

This assumes it will be cleared in Episode III. Something we can't know. I don't know why he would bother with this in E3, honestly.

EDIT - I'd like to thank Malthus and Quix for teaching me how to write really long posts.

 

It doesn't need to be made any more clear. Someone can instruct you without being your personal mentor, and it has already been established in both THE PHANTOM MENACE and ATTACK OF THE CLONES that Obi-Wan has indeed received instruction from Yoda.

 

What I decided to do,is to watch the AOTC DVD with the voice commentary on,and it Lucas himself answered so may questions.Just like everyone here says,Yoda trains the littles kids,until they are old enough to become padewan learner for an existing Jedi.This what Lucas says.

 

Durwood. To my knowledge, no where in AOTC does it say Ben was instructed by Yoda. If I am mistaken, please direct me to the appropriate line of dialog. I haven't seen AOTC since the Imax premiere.

As to the TPM, once again, having Yoda impart one line of advice hardly qualifies as an endorsement of personal instruction such as he gave Luke. ESB obviously implies a stronger bond than that. The PT tells us nothing of this bond, but instead show a bond between him and a different master. I'm leavng out anything that's in the commentaries, because though commentaries may be on a DVD, they are not in a movie.

 

wait how do u know Qui Gon's first apprentice was a female? what is known about her? Esplin9466?

 

Durwood. To my knowledge, no where in AOTC does it say Ben was instructed by Yoda. If I am mistaken, please direct me to the appropriate line of dialog. I haven't seen AOTC since the Imax premiere.

Obi-Wan seeks Yoda's council when he can't find Kamino.

As to the TPM, once again, having Yoda impart one line of advice hardly qualifies as an endorsement of personal instruction such as he gave Luke.

It is safe to assume that this isn't the only instruction Obi-Wan has ever received from Yoda.

The thing is, you're not supposed to force your interpretation of the ESB line to fit the prequels, you're supposed to take the information in the prequels and use that to interpret (or re-interpret as the case may be) the line in ESB. With the new information, we see that Obi-Wan's relationship with Yoda may have been casual but that he did indeed receive instruction from him on a regular basis. Therefore, his describing Yoda as "the Jedi master who instructed me" is entirely accurate.

 

Actually, looking at the PT as the first authority, then laying the CT over them, makes the ESB line even more confusing. It's easier to see ESB first, then start reading in things into line TPM and AOTC. In all honesty, if TPM was the first SW movie released, how many people are going to start assuming Ben was Yoda's former padawan just because he said "but after Yoda said..."? I think it's safe to say very few.


"Durwood. To my knowledge, no where in AOTC does it say Ben was instructed by Yoda. If I am mistaken, please direct me to the appropriate line of dialog. I haven't seen AOTC since the Imax premiere."

Obi-Wan seeks Yoda's council when he can't find Kamino.

Using that interpretation, it's the kid who instructs Obi-wan.

 

In the "Ultimate Edition," the dialogue is gonna be changed to:

"There you will seek the Jedi Master who trained the Jedi Master who trained the Jedi Master who trained me..."

*Look dies waiting for the speech*




I think I like it more short and sweet.

 

"There you will find Yoda, the Jedi Master who trained this kid who instructed me."

 

I wish they would keep it simple. After watching AOTC it is apparent that all young jedi are trained in a group setting and this is apparently what Obi-Wan was refering too. Also, in TPM Obi-Wan tells of Master Yoda's Teachings. While these explanations may seem a bit shaky LFL did a good job matching these together and compared to thier lightsaber disapearence fiasco good ol GL did a great job of keeping it from severly conflicting with the original trilogy. Also, in 1977 when Starwars was just a fledgling series GL might not have anticipated the enormous fan following that would develop or that there would ever be a series of Prequels so I'd Have to say taht he didn't really do all that bad a job of the Yoda-Qui-Gon conflict.

 

Interesting what some people define as a contradiction...

"But Obi Wan wasn't amazed at how strong the Force was- because now we see that Qui Gon was! So Obi Wan couldn't have been as well..."

"But Yoda didn't train Obi Wan- Qui Gon did! So Yoda couldn't have done it as well..."

 

wait how do u know Qui Gon's first apprentice was a female? what is known about her? Esplin9466?

I think that comes from the TPM Visual Dictionary, but I'm not sure. As far as I know, she has no backstory and has never appeared in any EU. However, you can learn about Qui-Gon's second apprentice, Xanatos, by reading the first story arc of the Jedi Apprentice series, consisting of The Rising Force, The Dark Rival, The Hidden Past, The Mark of the Crown, The Defenders of the Dead, The Uncertain Path, The Captive Temple, and The Day of Reckoning.

 

Yoda trained every Jedi in small groups till they were old enough for a one to one master/padawan training.
Since Yoda was the only Jedi left alive, who else would he send Luke to?
Obi-Wan; "I can't train you Luke. I'm dead. But my Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn who has been dead 24 years longer then I have will teach you."
Luke; "But if he's been dead longer then you how can he teach me? "
Obi-Wan: "Do'h!"

See it has to be Yoda. No contradictions at all when you think about it.

 

I just thought I'd up an old thread, and decided that this would be THE one...

[/joke for one person...]