Copyright Infringment is Rampant on the RPG Board

Yes, I understand. I wasn't suggesting every post was an infringement. There are, however, several requests for information from currently published works, in some cases with specific mention of the desire to avoid purchasing the source book...

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Well, given that people talk about that sort of thing freely on the official message boards for RPG?s and such, I don?t think that it?s a terrible problem. It may very well be technically violating copyright laws, but when it comes to RPG?s, I think that Wizards and most other companies realize that people posting occasional stats blocks aren?t going to kill the game; far from it.

A role playing game is by nature a social game. WOTC wants people talking about the game, socializing, and most importantly bringing in new people. So someone starts playing the SWRPG as a complete novice on our RPG board, and maybe there?s a chance, maybe just 1/10, that they?ll say ?hey, this is fun. I want to buy the sourcebooks.? Or they?ll see a few bits and pieces of the guides in Literature, and they?ll pick those up as general EU reference material where before they would have ignored them as being just RPG material.

Without the rules behind a RPG, rules that easily cover hundreds of pages (more on that below), the stats blocks are just trivia. Wizards knows that even if people do post stat blocks, most people who would already be interested are already looking to pick up their copy, and that new people might see things, get curious, and buy in.

I don?t play the SW RPG, but I do play Dungeons and Dragons. The 3rd edition Core Rulebook is comprised of the Players Handbook (286+ pages long), the Dungeon Masters Guide (256 pages long), and the Monster Manual (224 pages long). That comes to 766 pages for the Core Rulebook alone, without including anything like the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Manual, which is another 320 pages. Now, if someone were to scan (or even type up) all that and post it, we?d have a problem that the moderators would delete on sight (possibly after copying to their own hard drives ), but it?s unlikely that anyone would go that far. I?d say that it?s unlikely that we ever get more than at most 10-20 pages per sourcebook (I?m back to talking Star Wars here) ever posted, even if it all could be collected together. There?s so much, the interesting tidbits that creep out aren?t worth going after.

So, it?s a mere fraction of the whole that?s being reproduced, it?s happening on just about every RPG site you?ll find, and it?s bringing people into the game. As long as no one does anything stupid (like trying to scan in entire sourcebooks?), I don?t think that we have a problem. Now, if we get a Cease and Desist Order, I think we?ll certainly get very strict, but until then I don?t think that anyone, us or Wizards of the Coast, considers it to be a problem.

 

Those sites I'm guessing were offering up programs that contained all the stat and description information..." - Kadue

The Generators actually contained less information about species than some of the posts on this board do.

Not necessarily as some of the information comes from Gamer magazines which are unavailable outside of the US.

Some of it also comes from the Wizards website which is publicly available.

Yet more of it comes from WEG materials which are out-of-print and out-of-business. - dp4m

I know of a lot of SWRPGers with copies of SWGamer outside of the US (most in NZ). Many online retailers ship outside of the US - but we can't post their names on this board.

Isn't it a lot easier just to post a link to the information contained on the official WotC site than copying it?

West End Games isn't 'out-of-business' as you can see from the link I've provided. And just because something is out-of-print doesn't make it free of copyrights anyway. Many of those books are available through online retailers as well as a good number of auction sites.

Well, given that people talk about that sort of thing freely on the official message boards for RPG?s... - Jon_Snow

I personally know the moderator of the official WotC SWRPG boards and I know for a fact that he does not tolerate any copyrighted information on that board. As for what happens on the D&D parts - I have no idea.

 

I?m afraid that my experience with official message boards with Wizards is limited to Magic: The Gathering, where people post everything freely, artwork and text and rules, so maybe I spoke too soon. I have seen unofficial sites other than this site with stats on them though, and on the Neverwinter Night boards people throw stats from the PNP sourcebooks around pretty freely.

 

3) It doesn't affect the market (or does it?)

That's the thing to worry about. I mean, if I only wanted -- say -- the Darkside Sourcebook for a hand full of powers and a couple of character stats, and I could get people simply to post them here, then I won't buy the book.

Now, frankly, I don't care. The question is, does WOTC think this is going on, and if so, do they care? If they do, even if they're not in the right, they'll persue legal action.

 

Stryphe: there probably is somebody watching that forum, but nobody has that forum as their sole responsibility. I think that's what Fingorfin was refering to.

Actually, I happened to be AIMing with Fingorfin when I made that last post. He is concerned by the lack of a mod activity in that forum, not for copyright reasons, just for the general need of occasional mod help. If the forum doesn't get much traffic, there isn't really any reason to promote someone for that forum, but, as I said, maybe an existing game related mod could make it part of their turf, so-to-speak. Perhaps Bacabachaui or Red84 from the card games forum?

EDIT - After a careful examination, it looks like Yodajeff's been helping out in that forum recently, maybe he'd like the job. OK, I'll stop derailing the topic now.

 

"Now, frankly, I don't care. The question is, does WOTC think this is going on, and if so, do they care? If they do, even if they're not in the right, they'll persue legal action." - Darth-Stryphe

As I said in my above posts, WotC has taken the first steps of legal action against other websites for similiar reasons. Those sites simply followed the C&D letters and it didn't go any farther.

As for if this had any real effect on WotC, I'd say in some small amount. They did let go of a couple very talented writers.

 

What about copying users posts here from the JC?

What is the rules and laws concerning this scenario?

I mean if I was to write a book, and someone here on the boards wrote something that could be used, is it allowed to use it or do you need permission from the user in question.

Is it free for all or what?





DD -Infringed Spliff

 

You'd need permission from the original author, Darth Dane. Just because it was posted on a public forum doens't mean there isn't copyright involved. My words are still mine. I don't know if I could do anything about it, but technically I think that you have to ask for permission from the author.

 

How is what you post here copyrighted?

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"I mean if I was to write a book, and someone here on the boards wrote something that could be used, is it allowed to use it or do you need permission from the user in question."

This has already been done.

The book is "using the force: creativity, community and the star wars fans." and it is by Will Brooker.

He quotes from the JC extensively and from users such as Chyren, Quaff Down Gin, Darth Derringer amongst others.

It is a dull, dull read, and I am not sure how much permission he got for it.

UKS

 

If someone needs only a few stats or rules from a sourcebook and is not able to purchase it at the time, he will just go into a store and get the info from the book without buying it. So the argument that this thread and others like it, hurt sales does not make much sense. I know that that is not an explanation that will stand up to a legal challenge, but I see no difference between what is happening here and a group of gamers sharing books around the table. It is another aspect of the social nature a RPGs, which most game designers encourage.

As far as the issue of a mod in that forum goes, I know of no one that watches the forum, all mod activity has been the result of PMs sent to whoever happens to be online addressing specific issues. That works fine for little things, but when an issue like this comes up, it would be nice to have some one that you could PM for a decision or explanation instead starting a thread in Communications.

 

The difference is size. My players look at my books all the time, and a couple of them have all the books I do. And I'm sure that this wouldn't be an issue if you were sharing this information with 3 to 4 other people on these boards via Private Messaging or some similiar method. But, posting it on a public BB it's no where near the same thing as letting someone see a book during a game. How many hits does this site get a day? Now I know that only a fraction of those would ever make it to the RPG forum, but some still do.

And if someone takes the time and goes to the bookstore and flips through the book their is a chance that they will say, "Wow, this is a very good book. I think I'll buy it."

But, the facts are this:
1) The Terms of Service say not to post copyrighted information.
2) No moderator has frowned upon the posting of such information, at least not on a regular and recent basis. So it gives the appearence that this is unofficially tolerated.
3) Wizards of the Coast has shown that they can and will take legal action to defend their copyrights.

 

Hmmm...looking through the TOS, there seems to be conflicting views. In the Rules of Conduct, it says User agrees not to post copyrighted material, but in the TOS, it says the JC administration isn't responsible for the content in posts.

So...which is it?

 

"So the argument that this thread and others like it, hurt sales does not make much sense."

Since when does sense matter in copyright law?

 

How is what you post here copyrighted?

I believe that anything you post on a message board is copyrighted to the poster. That's the belief I've always had, at least.

 

Your posts could be considered intellectual property, but that would be a stretch in my opinion.

 

I believe that anything you post on a message board is copyrighted to the poster. That's the belief I've always had, at least.

You're kidding right? There is a formal process to having material *copywritten*, and I don't believe posting it on the internet is the first step.

 

No, I'm not kidding at all. I know I've read that before (posted officially).

Just a quick scan on Google found this:

Many people assume that everything posted on the Internet is public domain, probably because our law used to protect published works only if they displayed the proper copyright notice upon publication. The law, however, has changed: neither publication nor a notice of any kind is required to protect works today. Simply putting the pen to the paper or in the electronic medium, putting the fingers to the keyboard creates a copyrighted work. Once expression is committed to a tangible medium (and computer media is considered tangible), copyright protection is automatic. So, postings of all kinds are protected the same as published printed works.

I do believe that if you post it, it's yours (assuming you wrote it in the first place).

 

After looking through the thread, I do share similar thoughts to Vert's. There are some people in there that are using this as a way to avoid buying any of the books, and I personally find that distasteful.

I don't see an overt problem if it was just people asking about revisions that have been made to characters/species templates, or for small amounts of information from something like Gamer that is extremely hard to get outside of the US. But not people asking for wholesale amounts of stats because they don't wish to buy the books.

 

often i think companies fire off cease and desist letters when they have no real practical legal chance of enforcing their claimed legal rights..........they just rely on intimidation.....

 

As an RPGer and a frequent poster in the RPG forum, I really find nothing wrong with the thread. Sure, some people use it to find species that are in the books, but also many people use it to kitbash species stats that aren't in books.

Also remember that if you are in that thread means that you most likely have shelled out 45 bucks for the corerulebook. And there is also the fact that there are not many people there. The character generator's traffic was a lot more than the RPG board. It is more similar to friends sharing info than blatant piracy. At least in my corner.

And I do agree that its about time the RPG forum got a mod!

 

If someone needs only a few stats or rules from a sourcebook and is not able to purchase it at the time, he will just go into a store and get the info from the book without buying it. So the argument that this thread and others like it, hurt sales does not make much sense.

It has to do with published work. The people aren't going into book stores and copying the stats and publishing them on a message board, in your example. That makes for a big difference. The problem in question is, when they do post stats on a message board, they are essentially publishing it for the public to see. Is this legal? The question really isn't "are we hurting WOTC"? If it's illegal, WOTC is going to act whether or not it's hurting their business.

 

I agree with you, Stryphe. This is a simple matter of legality. The point of that comment was to show the problems with the argument that such sharing does anything to hurt WOTC's sales.

 

Is there any updates on this issue?