Could Anakin have beaten Mace

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by uwishuwereme, Nov 29, 2005.

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  1. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Look at OBW in that fight. Does it not appear that he is as emotional as Anakin? Anakin is emotional in that he wants to kill his old friend. He really want to do that. OBW doesn't want to do it. He will do what he must. He is a Jedi, so he tries to put aside his feeling. Several places do we see that he can't manage to do that with Anakin. Anakin meant as much to OBW as OBW meant to Anakin. They were both emotional.

    Anakin is not unbeatable by the time of ROTS. He just thinks so himself. OBW bested him, simple as that. Vader recognizes this by the time of ANH. Have you guys seen that film? he explicitly says that OBW was the master then, the better one, but NOW he IS the master... arrogant prick;)

    Mace wouldn't even be emotional in his fight with Anakin. In the Mustafar duel, Anakin wouldn't last very long I think. Longer in another duel. Give him one more year unsuited and he would be a serious threat to Windu - but not sooner.
  2. Ani_Lover Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2005
    star 4
    Yes actually I did see the movie.
    He was being a smart *** when saying he was once the learner.
    As in Obi-Wan was always ANAKINS MASTER, and now he would show Obi-Wan what a true Master was.
    He was NOT recognizing that Obi was better than him. He NEVER thought he was so why would he say it then?
    I agree that Obi-Wan was also emotional in his duel with Ani, But he was not CONFLICTED as Anakin was. Anakin had the Dark Side raging through him which blocks out all reason. His anger was so strong he could not focus as Obi was able to.
    As for Mace Windu-
    Have you watched ROTS?
    He couldn't even save his fellow Masters from death while Sids struck them all down in slow motion. You'd think he could have thrown in a couple blocks with his lightsaber.
    The only thing that guy ever did was cut a Bounty Hunters head off.:rolleyes:
  3. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    agreed, and the bounty hunter had 1 gun and no jet pack.
    Its not debatable why Anakin lost Lucas said, Gillard said, its on the DVD, book, whatever, he was a mess in that fight, and not focused, when he was focused he cuts peoples heads off. IF Anakin had fought the way he did against Dooku, Mace would lose both his hands. Hes the best swordsman, a level 9, and is said he could have beat Sidious, not in the future, "Anakin could have done it." And Vader was the master when they fought in ANH, there is a reason Kenobi hid in that hut for all those years, while Vader was out killing jedi. I think very highly of Kenobi, but don't try to make him winning in that he is a better fighter than Anakin. That relationship was very important to Anakin.
  4. Darth_Froschler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2004
    star 2
    No. Obi-wan is not emotional at all during the fight. He is a jedi master. He does not give into such emotions and knows better then that. Anakin knew this as well, until he joined the sith. When you get emotional, it clouds your judgement, making you vulnerable. This is the state of mind Anakin was in. Obi-wan was not like this. He was calm and at peace throughout the whole fight.Therefore, you knew right from the beggining that Obi-wan had the advantage before the fight even started.

    Notice when they're talking before they start fighting. Both of them do get a little emotional towards eachother. But when Obi-wan says, "I will do what i must," You can tell Obi-wan clears his head COMPLETLY of all thoughts and emotions, focusing on his duty at hand, to destroy the sith, regardless on who stands in his way. Obi-wan now realizes that Anakin is gone...dead...All there is left is Vader...a sith, whom he must destroy, because it is his duty to do so.

    Although that does not make Obi-wan more powerful. When vader said, "When i left you i was but the learner, now i am the master." He was refering to him mastering his own emotions. He used to be reckless and arrogant, but now he is in control of them, not reacting on inpulse.

    Unfortunetly, He no longer has the strength and potential to back up his newly mastered emotions due to his injuries.He was much more powerful in ROTS.
  5. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I see your point. I just don't agree. Anakin lost to OBW becaue they were equally strong. What implies that Anakin is that much better than OBW in anything in their fight? Do not draw the Dooku fight into the picture - we all know all fights are different! Their force duel was a draw, they cancelled eachouther out in the saber duel. OBW saw an opening and seized it.

    You can interpret what Vader says in ANH the way you want to. However, my interpretation is that he recognized his defeat - he wasn't AS powerful as he thought himself to be. Remember, right before Anakin is chopped into little pieces he says "don't underestimate my powers". OBW doesn't underestimate them. Anakin overestimates them.

    The whole choreography is a disaster with the possee. I know we are supposed to see the amazing strenghts of Sideous there, but it just looks pathetic. If you follow the quotes, then you must realize that Mace won that duel with Sideous? The OS says he did. Lucas has stated that he did. We see on screen that he does. What more proof do you need?

    As for Fett, he was regarded as a highly lethal bounty hunter. He did his job pretty well against OBW - although I think OBW had a worse time because of that little brat at the sticks.
  6. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    I agree that Anakin overestimated himself in that fight, again he was not thinking clearly, and was not focused, In the book after ROTS, he even admits that he did that to himself with a little help from Kenobi. That emotion, that attachment, lack of focus would not have been there against anybody else, and he is Atlest as powerful as Mace, and is actually stronger, if he uses it right, which he did in the Clone wars, Dooku, the jedi, just not against Kenobi. Who Lucas and Gillard say flat out that Anakin has surpassed in power, and the fact that he is always saving his life means something. Its not Kenobi carrying Anakin.
  7. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    (starting from the top of page 16)

    1. Then he got thrown down a pit of lava. He realized after that that he wasnt as strong as he thought he was. he realized he wasnt as good or as mature as he thought he was. Like any teenager does (save for the lava part)

    2. Since you guys like the EU stuff so much, you would see he does way more than that. He beat the best bounty hunter in the galaxy in less than thirty seconds flat. And thats just in the brief bit of screen time he gets. He also severely wounds Grievous (as someone pointed out earlier) and beat Sidious. That part was supposed to show how fast he was. And if all Lucas showed was a blur, you guys would have complained about that. If you noticed, the whole fight was relatively slow. But while Sidious put on a little act once Anakin showed up, that shows no indication that he let Mace win, only that he is good at turning a situation to his advantage, as you see throughout the whole saga. You still havent explained that if he can plan out the whole Mace duel, how come he couldnt plan the Final Duel in RotJ.

    3. ? He wasnt very focused when he sluaghtered an enitre village of tuskens. The same village that took down a whole troop of moisture farmers. Yet were all killed by one extremely angry, extremely emotional padawan learner.

    4. Obi-Wan hid in a hut to watch over Luke, seeing as he was the last hope for the Jedi. Heneeded to preserve that so he would have a chance at taking Vader. Plus his only shot was on Mustafar, which he won. Anytime after he would be deep in enemy territory with thousands of stormtroopers and the enitre imperial navy.

    5. He is as emotional as Anakin. He didnt calmy do what he did. he even warned him not to try and take him when he was on the high ground. And was in near tears when he finally did defeat him. Obi-Wan not being emotional? Are we watching same film?

    edit- I like the books as much as anyone, but they are not canon. You cannot quote them as such.
  8. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I agree that Anakin is powerful. He is more powerful than OBW, but not by much. Watch their force duel - that is a sign of strength - they are totally equal. I liked that actually - especially when we see that the same happens to Yoda and Sideous - they were equals as well.

    Why won't you reply to what Lucas said about Mace beating Sideous then? what the OS says about him beating Sideous, how he actually bested him on screen? That must count for something, don't you think??
  9. Darth_Froschler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2004
    star 2
    The force draw thing between Anakin and Obi-wan was a choice made by Hayden and Ewan. Nick Gillard wanted to show that they had simalur fighting styles, so he showed Hayden and Ewan the first 8 moves that he coriagraphed(spelling i know), and then they got to decide the rest (which was when they missed eachother for the next like 4 seconds, which was awsome by the way!)Then they decided to do a force push at eachother,(again, signifying that they have simalur fighting styles.) So its not like George Lucas or Nick Gillard had anything to do with that part. Hayden and Ewan are trying to do something that looks cool! Again, its just showing that they have the same fighting style, nothing to do with power.

    5. He is as emotional as Anakin. He didnt calmy do what he did. he even warned him not to try and take him when he was on the high ground. And was in near tears when he finally did defeat him. Obi-Wan not being emotional? Are we watching same film?

    I said DURING the fight, not during the scenes before of after the fight. AFTER the fight was over and he lay on that fiery beach, yes he did get emotional. Him saying not to try and attack him when he had the high ground is not emotional. He is simply warning him that Anakin can not beat him at that point. Giving a warning to an enemy is NOT emotional. In fact, its compassionate. Giving an enemy an oportunity to live and walk away, giving him another chance to redeem himself before his is not emotional, but serene and just . Fighting and killing an enemy is the last resort for a jedi.
  10. Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 3
    well if that is what Luca says then I guess it is word, but I do not believe that we are getting the full answer out of him!
  11. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas said he overpowered him, and that DS was faking being weak. After seeing DS powers against Yoda, i have already said i think he could just beat him without the saber if he wanted too, but set it up so Anakin could take him out, he had to, to get him to turn.
  12. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Well, after what we see onscreen they come out as equals, don't they? If Lucas has said that it doesn't count than I'll yield, but before he does: we are discussing the movies here. Think it was cool though;)
  13. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas, the diff on the two. "Anakin is more powerful, obi-wan has more experience."
  14. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    It's interesting that Dooku owns Obi-wan in battle, he just has his number thats it.
    And yet Anakin beats Dooku with quick power swings thats sends Dooku into the defensive and he looses. Anakin doesn't seem to fight with that level of power against Obi-wan, he is deadly quick though, but Obi-wan can match his speed, and he waits for an arrogant mistake same way he beat Maul.

    Windu doesn't seem to have a lightsabre weakness, if you consider the EU book shatterpoint it seems that he can't be beat 1 on 1. He got stabbed in the back by an ally after an exuasting battle with a powerfull Sith Lord. Thats why he lost.

    1 vs 1 no interference from anybody, I say Anakin loses, because Obi-wan couldn't beat Mace either.
  15. Darth_Froschler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2004
    star 2
    exactly, i would take experience over power any day. All I'm trying to get across is this...If you just compare Obi-wan's power to Anakin's power alone. Pretend that Anakin NEVER met Obi-wan, they DON'T know eachother's fighting styles, and that Anakin was NOT emotional at all during the fight...just there saber skills and force powers alone....

    Anakin would have absolutly slaughterd Obi-wan in a heartbeat. But thats not the case now is it? It's not about what if this, what if that. But if you include the fact that Obi-wan has superior experience, emotional control, and just the straight out fact that he trained Anakin and he tought him everything he knows, including how to fight...Obi-wan wins this one definitly.

    What i come to believe is this...Anakin can become TWICE as powerful as Palpatine and be the most powerful jedi of all time as Lucas has been saying... but i don't think he will EVER be able to beat Obi-wan, just because of these facts.
  16. jd7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2003
    star 1
    I would have loved to have seen this in the film. I personally think that Mace would of won, but Sidious would intervene somehow. It would of been sweet if Mace blocked Anakins lightsaber (instead of it chopping off his arm) and saying "lets just see if you really are the choosen one". Holy crap...that would of been awesome, there's always the possibility of a special edition.
  17. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    i wanted Anakin to block Mace's blade as he tried to kill DS, and them fight and Anakin take him out, like he did the Count.
  18. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    Froshcler- The duel was still going on. Would you count the scen where they take cover to avoid being hit by lava pebbles still part of the duel? Of course you would. The duel was not over until Obi-Wan cut off Anakin's limbs.

    Oh yea, Sidious was faking being weak. But that doesnt mean he hadnt lost. He would have been killed if Anakin hadnt come and given him an opening.

    Interesting hypothesis (about if obi and ani never knew each other and how in that same way ani could never beat obi) But once you get into what ifs, it just gets confusing. If someone esle taught Ani, he'd either go dark sooner than Sidious's plans warranted and quickly be defeated by the Jedi, or go Dark later or not at all in time to save sidious. Obi was the only one who could have made what happened in the films happen.


    Zam, so you still think Ani would have beat Mace? Btw, you've been awful quiet concerning the 6 points I brought up.
  19. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Can I just say that I completely agree with you on this post and your last. I think you're right on the money, sort of speaking.
    Zamwessel didn't answer my questions either - none of the Anakin fans did.

    The problem with Anakin is that he has the potential. He is gifted. It is not always the gifted guys who become the best, however. You have to stay determined and focused. OBW, Yoda, Sideous and Windu were all masters of that. Anakin was not. He defeated Dooku - and I personally didn't like the way that happened. How come he could easily fight the both of them, in ROTS, with a grin on his face, and suddenly loose... It is at least as suspect as the Mace Sideous fight.

    I don't understand why people are bashing Mace - he was right in not trusting Anakin, and he DID defeat Sideous. He was extremely powerful, he was wise (although that is not shown good enough in the movies I think). OBW was that as well, but not quite as powerful.

    Zamwessel: why not answer my questions, and HD-YaebGinn's questions?
  20. Ani_Lover Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2005
    star 4
    And I don't understand the Anakin bashing.
    Why is it that people will find one way or another to totally dispute what is seen right on screen and still make reasons for this or that??
    The reason people bash Mace is because us Anakin fans get a little tired of hearing about how arrogant he is only for those same people to defend Mace's arrogance.
    I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just commenting on the double standard.

    The facts are, Dooku lost to Anakin. Quite easily I might add. Just because you don't like "the way" it happened doesn't make it any less relevant right??
    So what if he had a grin on his face, So did Maul before he was chopped in half. Is that not relevant?
    Mace lost to Sids. You just can't dispute that fact no matter how hard you try. Palps was FAKING. We all know that. It is ludicrous to say that Sids would have died had Anakin not "come and gave him an opening". Had Ani not been there to lure to the Dark Side, Palps would have just taken out Mace himself. End of story.

    We see and hear about Anakin (and Obi) doing many heroic deeds throughout the movies. Why do you think him and Obi were sent out during the Clone Wars for 3 years? You sure don't see Mace doing ANYTHING but sitting in his council seat barking orders. Even Yoda went and got stuff done. What was Mace doing?? He was so arrogant he didn't even wait for back up from Yoda. Where do we see Mace determined and focused?? If he was so focused he would have shown PATIENCE and thought things through. After all, he's only dealing with a SITH LORD.
  21. Maranelo_Jori Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2004
    star 2
    <sarcasm> Oh yeah, sure, Palps was faking all the time. Mace was death just before he entered the room.
    Its clear as day that Obi-Wan was also playing weak on Mustafar, he would have destroyed Anakin in seconds if he wanted to </sarcasm>

    Disscusions like this never lead to the answer. But I say that Mace would win;)
  22. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    If I MUST accept that Dooku lost, why can't you accept that Sideous lost to Mace then? I accept that Dooku lost, I just didn't particularly like the way it happened.

    You still don't answer my questions. Mace's task was not to go on missions as Anakin and OBW. Yoda didn't go on too many missions himself it seems.

    Here's a couple of questions:
    1. Lucas intended for Mace to win. We see him overpower Sideous. What more proof do you need?
    (to say he didn't win is a bad interpretation)
    2. Mace appeared to be the strongest Jedi in the arena in AOTC - even Dooku seems to say that. He killed Jango quite easily. Where does he appear weak here?
    3. So, we only see Mace in action twice. But he kicks ass both times. What more do you need really? it's not about quantity, it's about quality!

    As for Maul's grin. Didn't he have the right to grin. He had overpowered OBW. His arrogance was his downfall, not his skills. Bad example.

    It's really annoying when you keep saying that Mace is so bad when you can't say why, or answer questions. You praise Anakin, but in the end he lost to OBW who is below Windu in strength and experience.
  23. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    1. So you say Palpatine was faking when he lost, yet swearing Dooku was fightingtooth and nail even when he was clealry doing better against 2 fully trained jedi than he was against one?

    2. You have as much evidence of Mace going out and doing stuff as you do Obi and Anakin. Books- Shatterpoint. Cartoons- Dantooine.

    3. How was Mace arrogant? He thought he brought 4 of the Orders best swordsmen including himself. And he succeeded in his goal. He defeated Palpatine. If I claim I can win the Tour de France, I am arrogant and ignorant, but if I do it, what am I?

    4. I am fine with how Anakin is. But no matter which way you spin it, he is the bad guy of Star Wars. I dont hate Anakin, he is a cool character, but he is a bad guy. I dont like seeing Anakin fans try and make it look like he's the victim, when he's over there killing kids and choking his wife.

    Rossa- exactly, I dont think Dooku neccessarily let himself die, but he has been said by sveeral sources that he was trying to trap Anakin and thought Palps would bail him out. There is no evidence to support Palpatine doing the same thing with Mace. Obi rules!
  24. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    The Dooku/Anakin fight is not debatable, Dooku was trying to kill Anakin, he knew what was going on, and even if he didn't he still was trying to kill Anakin, b/c Palps said if you can KILL him hes not strong enough.
    I don't know if Mace was arrogant he was just an ***hole, in the way he talked about Anakin in ROTS, when he should have been praising him for saving Palpatine,Killing Dooku, saving Kenobi, but instead he just trys to stare him down and talk down to him, that doesn't mean he is weak though, but beating Jango Fett with 1 gun and no jetpack so he has to just stand there is not an accomplishment. Just b/c Mace overpowers Sidious at that moment does not mean DS could not have just killed him earlier with the force, what would Anakin have done if he walked in there and all them were dead, he would not have turned then. Sidious planned everything in the prequels even Anakin's birth, i think. He knew what he was doing. George Lucas in 03 told Gillard about that in ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful jedi ever, and the book says that, his loss was mental, and that would not have been there against Mace, he would have had no attachment to him, and would have beaten him the same as Dooku.
    Oh and Anakin is the victim, George Lucas said that i think in this 05 Vanity Fair, he even used that word.
  25. Maranelo_Jori Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2004
    star 2
    Oh yeah, Palps planed everything, I mean EVERYTHING. He planed even his own birth and death.
    Actually, he died exactly the way he wanted, precisely acording to his plan.
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