Could Anakin have beaten Mace

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by uwishuwereme, Nov 29, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    he did plan everything up until he got tossed by Vader.
  2. Ani_Lover Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2005
    star 4
    We see what APPEARS to be Mace overpowering Sids. He did get him on his back but thats it. As I said before, if Ani hadn't come in, Palps would have used Force Lightning on him anyway. You say I don't answer questions, actually I do. How many different times should I answer the same question? I've given answers to your questions, you just don't like the answers so you say I'm anoying and not answering any. I've already said WHY Anakin lost to Obi-Wan, I've already said WHY Dooku lost to Anakin, I've already said WHY Sids would have kicked Maces butt anyway. It's right there in the movie. Even Yoda couldn't take him down. Are you saying Mace is better than Yoda?
    I'm not saying Mace wasn't a powerful Jedi, but Lucas intended for Mace to die, not overpower Sideous. The facts are there, Sids is a sly guy, he let Anakin do the dirty work and fall to the Dark Side. If he hadn't, Sids would kill Mace anyway, forget Anakin, and get himself a new apprentice.
  3. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    So how can you say he planned his fight with Mace up to being fried by his won electricity and Mace getting his hand cut off, but cant plan his subordinate betraying him?
    How can Palpatine possibly plan Anakins birth? That is ridiculous!

    If Anakin was deemed too weak if he lost, how come Palpatine still wanted him after AotC? He beat Jango when he had a full arsenal, but during the fight, he lost some of it. He still had

    1. A gun

    2. Flamethrower

    3. Multiple darts

    4. Blades out of his wrist.

    Mace did well during that fight. He beat the galaxy's best bounty hunter.

    If Sidious beat the Posse, then Anakin would still have evidence that they attacked him and that they had attempted to kill him. Either way works.

    He had the potential to be the best, but he wasnt yet. Obi-Wan was just as mental as Anakin.

    If you like the books so much (which is not canon and cannot be quoted as such) then in the novel Dooku is letting himself lose according to Sidious's plan.

    Anakin is not in any way the victim. Save for being too dumb to realize he is being manipulated. He killed kids, choked his wife, murdered a village of tusken raiders, and tried to kill his master. He is not the baddest guy, but he is the bad guy. He is responsible for his own actions. Sidius did not make him do anything. He did it.
  4. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I don't, however, agree with your take on the EMperor and the dark side. Since we are all looking for an interpretation that fits our perception of the star-wars universe, I can see that you choose to take Lucas statement about the dark-side as literally true. However, as I mentioned, you must take into consideration at the time and in which relation he said it. You must agree, at least, that there is a slight chance that he meant only for Anakin's agenda or perception of his agenda? That meaning that the dark side is not universally stronger.

    Lucas wasn't talking from Anakin's point of view, he was talking from his own point of view. If the dark side was only stronger from Anakin's point of veiw, Lucas would have specified that. I wouldn't say that the light side is stronger. However, I might say that another poster thinks the light side is stronger. I would have to make it clear that the statement is someone else's opinion, not my own. If I simply say "the dark side is stronger", that means its my own opinion- not just someone else's. Since Lucas says the dark side is stronger, that means its definitely universally stronger.

    I agree that Luke had nothing to resist the Emperor in ROTJ, but you must by now see that he did throw away his defense - we don't know his agenda for sure - could be that he KNEW he couldn't withstand it, then you are correct.

    The Emperor and Luke were on equal footing because neither used a lightsaber. The Emperor proved that the dark side is much stronger because Luke couldn't do anything to resist the Emperor's force lightning.
  5. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    your pretty much wrong on everything there, to say its ridiculous to say Sidious planned Anakin's birth is ridiculous, go watch the commentary on ROTS dvd in the opera scene, Macallum said in a web chat his guess was DS created him. The commentary also says Anakin loses b/c Kenobi was stronger mentally. and it wouldn't matter if Jango had a rocket launcher, if he can't fly away hes dead, with Kenobi or Mace. It has been said many times the weakness of the darkside is arrogance, Luke even said that, and that is why DS never thought Vader would kill him out of compassion for his son. And the book clearly says Dooku could not beat him b/c Anakin just kept getting stronger, and had unlimited "force reserves."
  6. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin would have owned Mace had they fought. I personally think that, judging by the final duel, Obi-wan and Anakin could kick anyone's butts in a lightsaber fight.
  7. Ani_Lover Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2005
    star 4
    I never said he planned to be fried by his own Force Lightning. Now you're just saying things I never even said. I also never said Sids planned Anakins birth. If anything, Darth Plagus planned it, NOT Sids. (by the way, I don't think HE did either, Anakin was made by the force, he was The Chosen One) Sids planned and hoped that Anakin would come "rescue" him by planting the seeds of Padme's death in his mind. It was all a set up. He knew Anakin would lead himself to his own downfall.

    The facts are:
    Palpatine CHOSE ANAKIN out of any other Jedi BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEST!! He wanted the most powerful Jedi ever for his own apprentice. Not Mace, not Obi, not anyone else. He had the highest midichlorian count of anyone. Including Yoda! You cannot dispute the facts. Sids knew who was the best and the best was ANAKIN.

    And no Anakin was not dumb. The Jedi council was dumb! You'd think they would treat the Chosen One with a little more respect, as he is the one to bring the force "back into balance". Why would they jepordize that?? Instead they ask him to commit treason. Completely against the Jedi Code. The council was not free of their mistakes either. They could learn a thing or two about loyalty.


    (By the way, a jet pack and a gun don't mean much. Boba had the same and look what happened to him?? A blind guy kicked his butt.;) )
  8. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    You don't answer to what Lucas said about Mace overpowering Sideous. You are using his quotes as it pleases you best. That is what I find annoying;)

    Anakin and OBW couldn't have bested Mace, Yoda or Sideous - they were below them

    Noone is disputing the fact that Anakin had the best potential of all the Jedi. But look how young he was, look how inexperienced he was compared to Yoda or Mace, Sideous and even OBW. Mace and Yoda had many more years to learn about the force. Perhaps Anakin had the potential of being stronger even in ROTS, but he didn't know enough about the force. He's not like superman who can read a book in two seconds you know. Raw power is one thing, cultivated power a whole different story. Mace, Yoda, OBW and Sideous had cultivated powers. Mace, Yoda and Sideous also had raw power. Combine those two and you will outmatch Anakin. OBW showed that cultivated powers alone could defeat Anakin.
  9. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    So who do you think had more experience Count Dooku, padawan of yoda, master of qui-gon and then Sith Lord, or Jedi Knight Anakin?
  10. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    Zam- 1. Then prove me wrong, dont tell me I am wrong. Show me how I am wrong.

    2. So someone who worked in star wars says he guessed Palpatine created Anakin, you take it as fact? Lucas created star wras, he is the only one who can say that and make it true, not the producer's guess. He didnt even say it was, he said he guessed.

    3. He'd only have to fly away if he was losing. He had more than enough weapons to do so toe to toe with Mace. It wouldn't have mattered if he had his other gun or a jetpack, at best he would have run away. But Mace was close enough that even if Jango flew away, Mace could have gotten him by jumping and slashing him in two.

    4. But if Palps really knew what was going to happen, he would have known Vader's son would be able to turn him. But he didnt. He did know Vader's son could turn him. Which is why he lied to him and said his kids were dead. He knew if Vader could be turned, his son would do it.

    5. Dooku had more experience than Anakin. Why do you ask?

    brook- granted, theduel was awesome, and the ywere so in sinc, that together, they could beat anyone, but not individually.

    anilover- 1. Some of those were directed at Zam, so I wasnt putting words in your mouth or anything.

    2. Yes, he had the most potential. No one ever disputed that. But at the time of RotS, he was not at his prime. Maybe in 5-10 years, he could beat anyone, but not then. In order to be a Force master, you need wisdom as well as youthful energy. Anakin was not yet mature enough to be the best Jedi ever.

    3. The council wanted to teach him meekness as well as hone his skills. They made some mistakes, but only in the same way Anakin did about not suspecting Palpatine so much.

    4. It's also treason to start a war against your own organization in an attempt the wrest control of the galaxy.

    5. Anakin didnt earn the council's loyalty. He constantly disobeyed orders and ignored the council. (plus he murdered people)

  11. Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 3
    your going to make a fight with the thought of a mandalorian to a jedi! no no no
  12. Darth_Froschler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2004
    star 2
    Yeah...that's exactly what i said...lol

    Whatever man :cool:

    But yeah, I haven't even posted my thoughts on the actual topic yet lol. By ROTS, Mace would without a doubt kill Anakin. But it would certainly be a long and hard battle. Give Anakin a year...hell, maybe even a month and i would say he would be able to take ANY force user, not even breaking a sweat.
  13. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    Yeah, give it about 2 or 3 years and Anakin would be undefeatable.

    Someone else was talking about how Obi-Wan was not emotional during the duel. And I was referring to when he was wanring anakin and then weeping about how he was his friend.
  14. Obi-2_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2004
    star 1
    In case you guys forgot jango's jetpack wouldn't work after the reek trampled him and he lost a gun fighting obi.
  15. Darth_Froschler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2004
    star 2
    Like it actually mattered if it did work....
  16. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    ? really? He never retrieved the gun from Kanio or got a spare? I always saw him with just 1 gun on Geonosis, but always thought it was jsut him using 1 gun over 2 for whatever reason. Cool.
  17. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    Here's an interesting tidbit that won't help us in the debate, but is a good read nonetheless.

    Homing Beacon #139 (June 23, 2005)

    It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord?

    George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be.

    This entire sequence changed significantly during postproduction. What we witnessed in Sydney told a different story. Anakin did not earn Mace's trust by ratting out Sidious right away. He did not agonize over his decisions while sitting alone in the Jedi Council chamber. He did not rush in at the last minute to witness a questionable balance of power. Instead, he stayed at Palpatine's side, in the Chancellor's private office, as Mace and his posse of Jedi barged in.

    "Stand behind me," ordered Mace, in Sam Jackson's demanding tones. But Anakin didn't budge. Instead, he watched passively as Palpatine used the Force to snatch Anakin's lightsaber from his belt and attacks Mace and the Jedi. There's ample evidence of this original version for those with sharp eyes and behind-the-scenes photos. Heck, even Hasbro action figures with Palpatine packaged with Anakin's lightsaber got out there in the initial shipments.

    So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do."

    When word of the change came down, the keepers of continuities started carefully tracking the evolving consequences. Palpatine had two lightsabers, then, since he loses this one in the duel with Mace. I still have in my inbox a tentative email from one of the authors asking, "um, have we figured out yet whose lightsaber Palpatine uses in the fight with the Jedi?"

    At first, it was feared it was impossible to CG the small svelte-handled weapon over Anakin's relatively chunky handle, but nonetheless, that was the lightsaber given to McDiarmid for the pickup photography. The shots of Palpatine rising from his chair and extending the weapon were reshot. The bulk of the duel between Sidious and Mace stayed from principal photography, except for a new touch -- a kick to Palpatine's face, done with stunt double Michael Byrne. This was shot on a partial set of just a piece of window-frame on Friday, August 27.

    So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?

    What else changed in this scene? There are a few more interesting details, particularly where it moved in the sequencing of the story. But that will have to wait for another entry.
  18. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    that does not change anything b/c Lucas says this is where mace overpowers him, and then that Sidious is faking being weak, you would think with the ferocity he shot his lighting at Yoda that knocked his saber out of his hand and the way he shot to kill Mace, that he could have done that right from the beginning.
  19. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    I was just posting it for the benefit of everyone. So they could see it just for fun.

    With Mace, he could have, but he would have blocked it. Plus Mace is alot bigger than Yoda. If a football hits Yoda, it could knock him down. If one hits Mace, it wouldnt impact him the same.

  20. Master_EdgeCrusher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 3
    what does Jango and OBW and football with Yoda have to do with Mace fighting Anakin/Vader? Mace is not Yoda, nor is Yoda Mace. Saber skills, Mace would not have lasted with Anakin, that or they would even a draw!
  21. The_Chibi_Kiriyama Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2005
    star 1
    Some people here are forgetting that "initially intended scenes" don't help to understand the full scheme of things. Or have we forgotten that the title 'Revenge of the Jedi' was changed at the last minute by Lucas because he believed that "Jedi don't take revenge"? Nothing stays the same, and even though I hate Mace Windu it seems from Lucas' own words that he bested the Dark Lord of the Sith himself. Case closed yet again by The Chibi Kiriyama! :cool:
  22. Ani_Lover Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2005
    star 4

    So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?





    That proves my point. As I said earlier, Mace DID get Palps on his back. I give him that. But as stated above, him claiming he's too weak is an obvious lie. IF Anakin hadn't of showed up, then Sids wouldn't have pretended to be weak. He just would have been really angry that Mace got him on his back and he would've blasted him with Force Lightning anyway.
  23. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Well I beat him in teh video game isn't that enough for you?


    In my oppinion Dooku and Mace were relatively on the same level, Mace was probably a bit stronger.

    Personally it could go either way, there are lots of upsets in duels and it isn't necessarily how 'powerful' you are.

    Highly figurative.
  24. -HD-YaebGinn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2005
    star 3
    1. It has alot to do with things. How Mace fared against Jango had alot to do with whether he has what it takes to beat Anakin. And the football thing was what zam said about Sidous just blasting Mace with a burst of lightning. How it would take more energy to knock down Mac, since he is bigger and harder to knock down.

    2. Yeah, sidious was pretending to be weak. But even if he wasnt pretending, and he blasted Mace, Mace would have blocked it like he did later on. It would be difficult, but Palpatine is getting fried as he is blocking it, so it would take it's toll on him while Mace just toughs it out.



  25. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    Jango has nothing to do at all with how Anakin would fare with Mace, and i would put Mace too at the same level with Dooku, but say Dooku is a better swordsman.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.