Could Anakin have beaten Mace

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by uwishuwereme, Nov 29, 2005.

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  1. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    On the contrary, as I'm forever tired of having to repeat, the Dark Side gives power, not inhibits.

    The Dark Side is what enabled Anakin to defeat Dooku.
    The Dark Side is what pushed Obi-Wan back the majority of the fight.
    The Dark Side is what enabled Luke to defeat Vader.

    Darth Vader's berserker style wasn't a liability, it was a Sith inspired, DarkSide charged form of lightsaber fighting that was relentless and ridiculously powerful.

    Anakin's arrogance was key, not his fighting style.
    His mistake wasn't made during the heat of battle against Obi-Wan if people notice, but during a pause and lull.

    Anakin fought Dooku the exact same way he fought Obi-Wan, even using some of the same moves, ONCE he began using the Darkside.

    People are cheating and shortchanging the Darkside by constantly using that as an excuse for why and how Obi-Wan beat Anakin.

    Maul was a berserker.
    Dooku was a controlled berserker.
    Sidious was a berserker.
    Vader was a berserker against both Obi-Wan and Luke on Bespin.


    EDIT:
    It never ceases to amaze me. Hayden spent 8 weeks learning that style and choreography to ILLUSTRATE and DEMONSTRATE how POWERFUL he had become using the Darkside.
    And people percieve it as a weakness. It's insulting to the effort and energy he put into it, when the whole point all along was to show "hey, this guy is powerful here"

  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Could Anakin have beaten Mace

    i think that anakin had good chances in ROTS to defeat sidious....if he can defeat sidious then he can perfectly defeat mace and if to that we add the way that he destroyed the count
  3. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "And people percieve it as a weakness. It's insulting to the effort and energy he put into it, when the whole point all along was to show "hey, this guy is powerful here"

    It's just a movie for starters and it's not like anyone in
    trying to insult Hayden [that's just funny].

    I think everyone knows and acknowledges how powerful Anakin is.
    The weaknesses he has he always had, fear, anger etc...
    They led to his fall to the darkside and led to him being
    taken down by Obi-Wan on Mustafar.
    He always had them, they weren't a result of turning to the
    darkside, they actually led to the turn but didn't serve him
    well after that either, obviously.

    IMO the journey to the darkside is the journey of a weaker man.
    "it's easier, more seductive.."
    Allowing your emotions, fear, anger, hate etc.. to dictate your
    actions lead to it. It's takes far greater effort and strength
    to keep on the right path then it does to let yourself fall to
    the wayside of the dark path IMO, hence it's a weaker man who
    fails and falls.
  4. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    I completely agree with you!
    Anakin was tricked by Obi-Wan. Obi used Anakins arrogance and faith in his own ablilities against him, trapping him. If he hadn't been tricked he would have killed Obi on Mustafar. I am sure he is capable of killing Mace Windu as well!
  5. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    I'm not referring to the philosophical or ideological implications of turning to the Darkside, but rather the immediate, and awesome power doing so gives someone.


    Sidious- "I know you would, I can feel your anger, it makes you strong, GIVES you focus."

    Anakin- "The Sith rely on their passion for their strength."

    Emotions are NOT weaknesses to Sith Lords. I don't know why that notion keeps getting perpetuated.

    In the effort to minimize Obi-Wan Kenobi most people make the fallacious mistake of bringing Anakin down as well.

    "he lost because he was emotional and a berserker and unfocused."

    No. The Darkside GIVES focus and enhances strength and power by EMOTION.

    Sidious- "I can feel your anger. Take your Jedi weapon, use it, strike me down in all of your anger and your journey towards the Darkside will be complete."

    Vader- "Obi-Wan has taught you well, you have controlled your fear. NOW release your ANGER. Only your HATRED can destroy me."


    The Darkside gives immediate superior power to Sith Lords over the Jedi. The light side wins long term, with patience, because the Darkside is ultimately self destructive.


    EDIT:

    arrogance is the only weakness of the Sith.

    Maul thought he had Obi-Wan defeated.
    Dooku thought he was irreplaceable.
    Vader thought he was unstoppbale.
    Sidious thought he had Vader forever in his pocket.
  6. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Mace would win. Didn't Lucas or Gillard or someone say that only Mace and Yoda could compete with the Emperor? doesn't that imply that Anakin couldn't compete with Yoda or Mace? I see Mace as much more focused as Anakin, and he is supposed to have amazing fighting skills... put those together...
  7. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    George Lucas is also quoted somewhere to have said something about that Anakin is twice as powerful as Sidious. George Lucas is God, that's true, but he also seems to change his opinions on things from time to time. Or perhaps he often gets misquoted, I don't know...
  8. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    That's what I've been saying about "official" George lucas qoutes.

    People take that as some sort of gospel , written in stone, but let's be realistic here George Lucas doesn't give a **** about all of this stuff half as much as everyone who posts in these forums does, myself included. You can tell he makes half of his "official" Lucas qoutes up on the fly, and he always has this little twinkle in his eye. He knows he is merely bull****ing his way through it.

    Lucas could care less about the particulars and minutia that we so scrupulously examine and debate ad infinitum. That's why I take half of what he says with a grain of salt.

    He contradicts himself. He changes his mind depending on what sort of mood he is and who is interviewing him.
  9. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Which further supports Mace destroying Vader

    Mace and Yoda are the two top dogs, you can't have a weakness against them or you're dead - in Mace's case, even Vaders master fell against him.

    RotS-Vader isn't at the height of his power yet and is at the ultimate height of arrogance ("You underestimate my power!") - which is exactly why a Jedi at the calibur of Mace would destroy him, and why a Jedi like Obi "destroyed" him.

    They're Jedi that you just can't pull that stuff on, Grievous could destroy Jedi but Obi-Wan mocked him to his face and had his arms off within a minute - Mace crushed his chest at the mere sight of him. Sidious could destroy three Jedi Masters in seconds but got a boot to the face by Windu.

    It's the same with Vader - he could walk into the temple and kill most Jedi, but he couldn't defeat Obi Wan. Just like he couldn't defeat Mace or Yoda or even Sidious at this stage, he's not ready for it. Which is the entire point of his loss.

    - O_F
  10. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    Mace vs. Sidious doesn't really count as Sidious intentionally let Mace "win" in order to turn Anakin to the dark side. If Sidious had intended to kill Mace the way he did those other three Jedi Masters (while fighting Mace I might add) he would have killed him!
  11. Han-my-boogie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2005
    star 1
    A big fat no. Surprised are you? IMHO Anakin is a great fighter, however at that stage he still lacked the control, experience, and strategy to overcome the badass Jedi killer. It takes more than raw power to topple Grievous. Look at the effort Obi-Wan went to to defeat grievous. The jedi were right; they needed a master to do the job. Anakin still didn't have the experience a master carried. Grievous would've squashed Anakin.
  12. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "Mace vs. Sidious doesn't really count as Sidious intentionally let Mace "win" in order to turn Anakin to the dark side."

    Nope. Mace owned Palps even before Ani came into the room,
    just seeing the film tells us that. It wasn't until Ani showed
    up that Palps started playing possum to get Ani to make the
    choice which would turn him.
    Mace would have killed the Emperor if Ani didn't show up.
  13. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    Not at all. Palpatine let Anakin report him to the Jedi Council knowing that Anakin would either come with the arrest squad or later (Palpy being his only hope to save Padme).
    That is also why he chose that excact moment to reveal the truth to Anakin - knowing that Yoda and Obi-Wan were off-planet - and that it would be Mace (daredevil enough to try to arrest him without any planning in advance) and also knowing that Mace and Anakin was not on the best of terms.
    Then Palps quickly disposed of the three of the Jedi Masters to get the situation under control. He then intentionally "lost" to Mace in order to make Anakin see him as the victim and Mace as the bad one intending to kill him.
    Palpatine could have killed Mace righ away, like with the other three, but then what would have met Anakin upon his arrival: The evil sith who had brutally murdered the Jedi-Masters. Anakin would never have turned to the Dark side if that was what had happened.
    So the entire duel was a set-up from Palpatine to force Anakin into turning to the Dark side!
  14. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    WEE, that's subjective and your opinion.
    There are quite a few of us who have a whole diff interpretation
    of that battle.
  15. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    George Lucas has already confirmed that Mace beating Sidious is fully legit.

    - O_F
  16. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    Yes, but when Lucas confirmed that I think he was more referring to the fact that he actually won the saber battle (we can all see that Palps do struggle against him). Palps did probably not plan for himself to loose his lightsaber at that excact moment or anything, but the fact remains that Palps is not trying to kill Mace. He needs Mace alive in order to turn Anakin to the dark side.
    If Palps had intended to kill Mace right away he would most likely have used Force-powers against Mace even before Anakin showed up (like he does towards Yoda).
  17. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    Palps didn't need Mace to turn Ani, he pretty well already had
    him thanks to planting the seed about saving Padme.
    I think the scene with Mace was just fortunate and forced
    Ani into making a snap decision right away.
    I see it as fortuitous, not planned.
  18. MaceWindu_is_GOD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 3
    That's what I've been saying about "official" George lucas qoutes.

    People take that as some sort of gospel , written in stone, but let's be realistic here George Lucas doesn't give a **** about all of this stuff half as much as everyone who posts in these forums does, myself included. You can tell he makes half of his "official" Lucas qoutes up on the fly, and he always has this little twinkle in his eye. He knows he is merely bull****ing his way through it.

    Lucas could care less about the particulars and minutia that we so scrupulously examine and debate ad infinitum. That's why I take half of what he says with a grain of salt.

    He contradicts himself. He changes his mind depending on what sort of mood he is and who is interviewing him.


    by JoshuaVance




    =D= =D= =D=


    GL said that Greivous is like the Emperor, not that powerful.

    But then he said before it takes someone like Mace or Yoda to even compete with Sidious.


    Good one GL.



    Anyways,

    Yes, Anakin could defeat Mace like Ani could have also defeated Obi-Wan.

    Mace also has a shot like Obi-Wan in defeating Anakin.

    The only advantage to Obi-Wan is that, Obi-Wan knows Anakin's fighting style and buttons to push due to being his master while Mace doesn't.

    Anakin also has more feelings toward his former master rather than Mace.

    So yes, Mace has a shot like Obi-Wan but if they fought then Ani would have defeated him most of the time. Not easily though.
  19. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Actually, George explicitly said that Palps was trying to destroy Mace both in the fight and his first blasts of lightning - Mace just "overpowered" him which lead Palpatine to turn to Anakin and exceggerate his weakness

    Only at the end of the lightning blast does he start faking, not before.

    - O_F
  20. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    This is one lightsaber battle I wish had occurred on film, just as I wished Mace and Dooku had battled in AOTC.

    Many of us wanted to see Anakin actually kill a Jedi in ROTS. What better Jedi for him to have killed than Mace Windu. I think such a battle would have been close, especially with Palps encouraging Anakin. Then have had Mace kick Anakin down and Mace turn back to try and kill Palpatine. Anakin recovers from being down, and then as Mace prepares to strike down Palpatine, Anakin slices off Mace's hand and Palps ignites his lightning on Mace as did happen.

    I for one wonder why Lucas did not choose to have Anakin and Mace battle for a little while. I think what was accomplished could have still been done had they actually fought.

    I do think Anakin would have had a slight chance to beat Mace if they had fought.

    Darth Sin! :cool:

  21. MaceWindu_is_GOD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 3
    Palps didn't need Mace to turn Ani, he pretty well already had
    him thanks to planting the seed about saving Padme.
    I think the scene with Mace was just fortunate and forced
    Ani into making a snap decision right away.
    I see it as fortuitous, not planned.




    I'll have to disagree with you my queen.


    Anakin was there to make sure the Jedi were going to arrest him and not assasinate him like Palps has been saying.

    Ani was there to make sure Palpy go to trial so he could pump the info from the Dark Lord of the Sith while in jail and at the same time not betraying the Jedi let alone purging the whole Order.

    "I will quickly discover the truth to all of this." Anakin to Palpatine after turning his offer down and reporting him to the Jedi even though he knows Palps could save his wife.


    And then BEHOLD!! Anakin walks in and a defenseless Palpatine on the floor while Mace looking like the aggresive assassin.

    From helping Mace arrests Palpatine to helping Palpatine purge the whole Jedi Order.


    All because of the Palpatine vs. Mace duel.

    Design.


  22. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    Not right. Anakin reported Palps to the Council because he was still good and felt it was the right thing to do and because he wanted him arrested. Anakin wanted him captured alive so that there still would be a chance to save Padme. So at this point Anakin is still good. The possibility of a chance to save Padme did not keep Anakin from doing the right thing.
    Palps knew this of course which is why he lets Anakin report him, but also tells him "but you're not sure of their intentions" thus giving Anakin the idea that the Jedi would try to kill him instead of arresting him.
    Then Palps let Mace fell how powerful he is by killing the three Masters in order to get Mace to try to kill him instead, so that when Anakin shows up. Mace appears to be the unreasonable bad guy who wants to kill Palps, thus forcing Anakin to take that final step over to the dark side. So it was all planned.
  23. Violetsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Since Mace and Yoda are on the same level, asking if Anakin could beat Mace is like asking if Anakin could beat Yoda...maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath!

    Violetsaber
  24. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    i don't think its really like asking if Anakin could beat Yoda, ROTS Anakin in a pure lightsaber fight would no doubt beat Mace. I think Mace was seen as good swordsman, even though he did not look that great, but i don't think Mace could have been in the Senate at withstand what Yoda did. Anakin and Mace were to fight it would be a pure lightsaber fight, and he could do to Mace the same he could to Dooku.
  25. ChestRockwell Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2004
    star 2
    Anakin likes to rely on raw power and strength and Mace is one Jedi who would beat him at that game. Look when Mace and Sidious lock sabers, sids if paniced looking while Mace looks like an angry Bull flaring his nostrills as if to say I will crush your little A$$.
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