Could Count Dooku defeat Palpatine?

Yeah. I was only making a point of how the argument goes both ways
I agree, though, that Palpatine certainly comes off as the best politician in terms of playing the game as you say, although it has to be said that we don't get to see how Dooku handles things, but he seems to be on top of things (although Sideous seems to be on top of him again )

 

Only reason Dooku seems to be on top of things is because he is following Palpatine's instructions...Keep in mind, Dooku leading the Seperatist movement was rigged. EVERYTHING went by Palpatine's design, not Dooku's. All Dooku had to do was ensure that Palpatine's will be done. He was Palpatines lap dog. A more interesting lap dog than Maul, but a lap dog nonetheless. The fact that he allowed himself to be used as a tool, a pawn in a Sith game of chess, shows he isn't nearly as politically savvy as Palpatine is. Palpatine was playing king on both sides of the chess board.

 

Dooku may have been a lapdog, but he wasnt that stupid. He was aware of the bigger picture, he knew what Palpatines plan was. I think Sidious was more careful around Dooku than he would have been around Maul. Dooku was a Jedi master for many years before he joined Sidious and the darkside. He was already a powerful force user and a master with a lightsaber.

Although Sidious was more powerful than Dooku, force powers aside i think Dooku was more than capable of beating Sidious. But as i said before, he would probably lose 95 / 100. I rank Dooku outside the top 4 force users, but nobody else in the PT was a match for him. But he would only beat Sidious with a lightsaber. Once he loses the lightsaber, force powers come into play. This is where Sidious would outclass him.

 

Obviously he wasn't aware of the bigger picture, as he had absolutely no clue that Palpatine was using him as a test to determine if ANAKIN was a worthy Sith candidate. He had no clue that he was just a placeholder until Palpatine's efforts with Anakin started to pay dividends. He was caught completely unaware at the beginning of ROTS, when his master, Darth Sidious, encourages Anakin to kill him...That's exactly not knowing what Palpatine's plan was. Dooku allowed himself to be played. Dooku only knew the parts of the plan that Palpatine chose to show him. I am not saying Dooku was a moron, far from...as those who follow the "Should Maul have died" thread can attest, I MUCH prefer Count Dooku over Darth Maul as both a villain, and as a Sith apprentice...however, Palpatine was capable of manipulating Dooku, just as he manipulated the entire galaxy.

 

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

So Dooku wasn't aware of everything and Palpatine lied to his face, Slashaxl.

 

Rubbish.

Someone like Darth Maul could never have executed Sidious' plans with the CIS as he lacked political savvy. Say what you will about Sidious designing the overall picture, it took someone with great political skill to bring together so many desperate elements into on political entity.

Sidious created the conditions in which the CIS could come together, however, Dooku had the essential task of doing the actual groundwork to complete the task. And that is actually the point, Sidious could never do all the work needed to talk so many into joining the CIS, he didn't have the time. He had to entrust someone nearly as capable as himself to do probably 75% of the work for him.

Look at it like a massive military operation. Erich von Manstein may have drafted the designs for the conquest of France, but it took very capable field commanders to enact that plan to fruition. Indeed, like military plans, even the smallest misstep could have thrown Sidious' plans into total disarray. As a result, it was necessary for Dooku to know nearly as much as Sidious.


Anyone that thinks otherwise obviously has no real experience with complex operations to claim that those who execute the plans are in no way as vital as those who design the plan.

 

Dooku was a leader, an aristocrat. Maul was a fighter. They were trained for different objectives. Had Dooku been 20 and met Maul, game over in seconds. Had a 70 year old Maul met AOTC Dooku, same result. Dooku's clout with politicians, nobles and former Jedi was probably what caught the eye of Sidious. He was born to play the role of CIS Leader, but only briefly. He was way too old to make a suitable apprentice, and if allowed to pick between a promising young Maul and a powerful old Dooku, Sidious would go with the former.

Edit: How does every thread turn into Maul versus Dooku?

 

Dooku looked the part, thats why he was put in charge of the CIS. Maul could never have done the job, because he didn't look like a "leader", while Dooku did. But, just because you look good on holonet doesn't mean you can't also be a political puppet. Dooku was the public face of the Separatists, however, Palpatine was always the one pulling the strings.

 

I think because some think Maul was the bees knees while others think he was nothing more than mindless enforcer who looked fancy. Others think Dooku is a tired old man who was a pushover because Anakin killed him rather quickly. If you think about it, Maul and Dooku are about as different as they come and people seem to have strong feelings one way or the other.

Your statement that Maul is a fighter is course correct. However, I think too many fall into the trap thinking that Dooku was somehow this guy who talked his way out of things. Just because someone isn't flipping around performing ridiculous acrobatics doesn't mean they can't fight. Dooku demonstrated he was far more powerful than Maul at the time of Maul's death. Of course, that isn't to say that Maul would not have become as or more powerful.

Most also tend to think of Maul as a mindless thug. I would point out we never see enough of him and I would think any Sith Lord would have to be pretty smart.

 

Agreed, especially since Palpatine wouldn't choose an idiot to be his eventual successor.

 

I wonder if Sidious fully intended Maul to succeed him. Again it begs the question about who or what created Anakin etc...

Maul may not have been dumb, but my impression is that he wasn't exactly super-smart either. I am sure Maul was above average but can you see him probing the mysteries of Sith and delving into history or being engrossed with philosophy and galactic economy?

 

I can't, but such subtleties would be unimportant once the Sith destroyed the Jedi Order as no one could stand before them.

 

Yes, but he would still have an Empire to run and the possibility of the Jedi returning.

Maul would be like W as Emperor I think.

 

True, but given enough military authority it doesn't matter if the people like you or not.

 

Its not about popularity, its about managing the state. That takes a breadth of knowledge, or good advisors. He would have Mas wouldn't he?

 

I'd assume Maul would keep Mas Ammeda. He'd probably also have some of Palpatine's other contacts(though they're pretty much solely EU such as Sate Pestage.)

 

There was a good argument about whether or not Vader could have become Emperor had he slew Palpatine after defeating Obi-Wan. I would say no. Senate would never go for it and even SuperAni could not defeat the army. After all, the clones were loyal to Palpatine, and no one else.

Palpatine's enthronement as Emperor was legal and sanctioned.

Then again, after four decades, perhaps the situation would be such that Maul could assume the throne without too much opposition.

 

If the "Battle Of Naboo" had gone as originally planned, I believe that Nute Gunray would've been the political face and Maul would be there as the enforcer. Because Maul made a fatal mistake, Palpatine needed someone who was trained and looked to the ranks of the Jedi, where he found a ripe canidate in Dooku. He wound up killing two birds with one stone. Maul's death was an unfortunate thing, but it was not a total loss as he still comes out on top.

 

To be a Sith is to be flexible. The force provides and the Dude abides.

 

lol, Dooku "flipped around" as much as Maul.

Except when Maul did it, it looked good.

 

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever to this statement.
Sidious trained Maul, so it's safe to assume that he trained him to handle more than just a lightsaber.
Remember Sidious had no intentions of ever losing Maul.....Maul's death wasnt part of the plan, even Lucas says so. But for some strange reason folks like to say that Sidious brought Dooku in to handle the political part.
There is no proof of that. Dooku was brought in as a "last minute resort".
IMO Maul was perfectly capable of handling most of the political matters because his mentor was a political genius who probably had every intention of having Maul succeed him, so I dont think he would send him out in the world unprepared.
(as a matter of fact I believe SSS has a few quotes that will give you some insight to Maul's intelligence.)

People just dont seem to think that Maul was "politician material" because he didnt wear a cape, or carry himself like the tea drinker.

Maul looked like a cool, badass fighter so most people seem to automatically assume thats all he's good for.

This is StarWars folks......they dont have the same prejudices and preconcieved notions that we might have, looks mean absolutely nothing.



Remember this EVIL looking fella:
[image=http://lukoagency.free.fr/images/Bruce%20Spence/e3utap01.jpg]

 

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/r8hitman/241962029.gif]

 

No. Dooku cannot take Palps.

Second. No Mace did not beat Palps. There was even an instant where Palps could have ended it there. But instead, he used Mace to push Anakin. By letting Mace get the upperhand, and appearing about to die(& with him the secret that would save Padme'). His burst of power showed that he was not as weak as we would have believed. Sorry, but Mace was just a pawn in the game.

 

A gizka could beat Sids.

Dooku would pwn sids.

 

Maul could not have done what Dooku could, for one simple reason. PR. Public Relations. Dooku could appear sympathetic appearing on the holonet, could seem reasonable. As an Ex-Jedi Master, he had clout. Maul, with his red and black tatoos, and lack of public awareness about him could not generate the same sympathy for the Separatist movement as Dooku could. Even if Maul was as intelligent as Dooku (which, there is absolutely no proof of, going by the films he is just a brute) He doesn't have the look. When it comes to politics, you need more than ability, you need to have the charisma to sell yourself. Dooku had charm, charisma, traits that are just as important as political savvy. Maul just doesn't look like a politician.