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Could Dooku and Qui-Gon have known about the reemergence of the Sith before the Council did

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Sin, Feb 10, 2003.

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  1. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999
    Seeing that this is not really a topic for TPM or for AOTC, this seemed to be a proper place to discuss this.

    In AOTC, Dooku said to Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon knew of the corruption in the Senate when he was telling him that a Dark Lord of the Sith was controlling the Senate.

    Was Dooku possibly implying that he and Qui-Gon may have known(before Dooku became a Sith) before the Jedi Council that the Sith had returned/reemerged/still existed and had already began impacting the Senate?

    I ask this because it takes me back to Qui-Gon seeming so for certain that his attacker, Darth Maul on Tatooine was a Sith Lord. Qui-Gon seemed to have no doubt of this, and said confidently, "My only conclusion is that it was a Sith Lord"

    Now many could argue and have done so that this was the only conclusion he could have made. But remember that the Jedi per Ki-Adi Mundi and Mace quickly refuted such a notion, and proclaimed their extinction, and that they could not have returned withour the Jedi's knowledge. Yoda simply offered that maybe not in that as he said, "Hard to see the dark side is"

    But this does not explain why Qui-Gon seemed so sure that his attacker was a Sith Lord. Is it possible that he and Dooku somehow had come to learn that the Sith still existed and/or reemerged and had found their way into influencing the Senate?

    And so would this possibly be what Dooku was trying to say to Obi-Wan that he and Qui-Gon knew this even when the Jedi Council could not see it, and they knew where the corruption in the Senate originated, and that being the Sith?

    But if this was the case, why would they not share this knowledge or their suspicions with the Council? But who knows, maybe they did and it was rejected. Then look what transpires in that Qui-Gon is killed by the Sith and Dooku becomes one.

    By the way, we know Palpatine was the Senator for Naboo obviously before the time of TPM and certainly had begun controlling the Senate.

    And we heard Sidious say in TPM, "I have the Senate bogged down in procedures", and then we see and hear Palpatine control the Senate by manipulating and controlling Amidala to call for a vote of "no-confidence" in Chancellor Valorum.

    Could Dooku and Qui-Gon have learned about the Sith prior to the time of TPM and their influence on the Senate, but unsure of who the Sith were??

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  2. Darth_Banal

    Darth_Banal Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 22, 2002
    I agree Sin that Qui-Gon was definitely one step ahead of the Jedi Counsel. I wonder what Ki-Adi and Mace would have said if Maul had attacked them. Qui-Gon's affirmation to the counsel that Maul must be a Sith Lord is certainly not a whim; Immediately after he was attacked, Obi-Wan asked what Maul was and Qui-Gon replied "I don't know, but my guess it was after the Queen". He obviously had meditated on the matter and came to the correct conclusion that Maul was a Sith Lord.

    But, does he know the Sith are controlling the Senate? I don't think so. Because of what Dooku said next: "..but he never would have gone along with it, had he learned the truth." We know Dooku is pulling his "telling the truth confuses things even more" scam with Obi-Wan here, so I don't have much reason to believe Qui-Gon knew about the Sith controlling the Senate.

    I think he did start putting the pieces together before he was killed, however. He said "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute"...follow that with the Federation's move in attacking, rather than folding quickly as he had predicted they would.

    EDIT: To finish the thought, so much happened in TPM so quickly, Qui-Gon didn't have too much time to consider the "big picture." But I definitely think in the following years, had he been alive, he would have been the first Jedi to discover what was happening in the Senate.
  3. NiktosRule

    NiktosRule Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 8, 2001
    Qui-Gon knew of the corruption of the Senate only in terms of the Senators being corrupt and caring for their personal interests and not of the interests of the people. Qui-Gon had no idea of a Sith controlling the senate or else he wouldn't have gone along with the whole senate thing as Dooku said.
  4. KenKenobi

    KenKenobi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jul 11, 2002
    Qui-Gon was aware of misunderstandings and "corruption" among the Senate in terms of dealing with politics, not the Force or the re-emergence of the Sith.

    As put forth through events in the EU, Qui-Gon was not fond of the Senators or the Senate itself, considering the fact that they were always debating on issues that were only supported through bribes and kickbacks.

    This, being politics of course, is a totally different genre from the emergence (or I guess you could describe it as the re-emergence) of the Dark Side, and the revealing of the Sith.

    If Qui-Gon would have had any idea that Dooku was working for the Sith and Palpatine (as the "Dark Lord controlling the Republic") was plotting to bring the government down to its knees through the Clone Wars and then establish an Empire, I'm sure that he would have not gone along with the plans and actual events that end up taking place.

    Then again, how do we know that Dooku was a Sith during the time Qui-Gon was alive? During the time that Qui-Gon was alive, Darth Maul was Palpatine's apprentice (speculating without a doubt, of course, that Sidious is Palpatine).

    I support the fact that Dooku was lying to Obi-Wan about Qui-Gon supporting him (even as Tyranus), since I firmly believe Dooku was not caught up in the events of the Sith before and during TPM.

    Then again, this is more of a topic that would be more throughly answered after Episode III....I'm sure we'll gain some more insight there. :)

    [hl=purple]Ken Kenobi- And you have a nice day ;) [/hl]
  5. DarthAttorney

    DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 8, 2000
    "Qui-Gon didn't have too much time to consider the "big picture."

    But that was always Qui-Gon Jinn's biggest flaw, the inability to deal with anything outside the immediate. He too attuned to the Living Force at the expense of the Unifying Force (as mentioned in the TPM noverlisation).

    I doubt he knew about the Sith before his encounter with Maul on Tatooine. It was actually his Padawan at the time who felt the first inkling of Dark Side malice in the Galaxy in one of the first scenes of TPM ("I sense a disturbance in the's elsewhere, more elusive").

    I actually think it was Qui-Gon's death that partially drove Dooku over. He was already frustrated with the corruption in the Senate and decay of the Republic but it's ironic that the source of that frustration and decay ends up his Master ;)
  6. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999
    Let me make it very clear that I do not believe that Dooku was involved with the Sith in any way before Qui-Gon was killed.

    It is probable though he was being courted by Palpatine before this though in a similiar fashion that we saw him doing with Anakin in AOTC.

    But what I am saying is, is it possible that Dooku and Qui-Gon believed if nothing else that the Sith probably still existed and were never extinct?

    But even moe than this, could they come to believe that the Sith were not only still in existence, but had infiltrated the Senate and were a main reason for the corruption?

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  7. The_Anakin_Wannabe

    The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 21, 2003
    I think Qui-Gon is way ahead of the average Jedi in many areas. I do think that Qui-Gon doubted whether the Sith were extinct. Obi-Wan didn't seem to know what atacked Qui-Gon, although he wasn't down there in the thick of things to make a correct judgement.
  8. Ternian

    Ternian Jedi Youngling star 4

    May 16, 2000
    An insider at LFL once mentioned to me that Dooku KNEW of Anakin bringing down the Republic and is working to get rid of Palpatine.


    JHC_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 21, 2002
    Good point Darth Attorney, Qui-Gon's focus on the present seems to imply that he wouldn't have known the entire picture.

    One thing I have to ask though is "What if Qui-Gon did know about the Sith?"

    Is there any reason that he would have kept that knowledge from the rest of the Jedi? While he was portrayed as a rebel, and that he saw himself as above the Jedi's rules, I don't really think its in his character to hide the knowledge of such a threat to the Jedi order as the re-emergence of the Sith.
  10. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999

    It is my thinking that if Qui-Gon had any knowledge or believed that the Sith still existed and communicated this to the Jedi Council, it would not be well-received by them.

    If you notice in TPM, the Jedi Council acted in disbelief when Qui-Gon proclaimed he had found the Chosen One.

    And anyway, when he actually had an encounter with a Sith(Maul), they basically did not believe this claim. So anything prior to this encounter I am sure was not believed and received by the Council.

    You get the feeling from Dooku in his conversation with Obi-Wan in AOTC, that this was a point of contention with Dooku and the Council from the past, that they failed to listen to Dooku on things he had presented to them. And likewise this was the same with Qui-Gon. We know Qui-Gon had defied the Council even before the time of TPM according to Obi-Wan.

    It is my belief that Dooku presented many things to the Jedi Council in the past that fell on deaf ears. Maybe he even presented that he believed the Sith still existed, but they merely scoffed at him for such talk.

    So when the Sith reveal themselves in the person of Maul, and Qui-Gon is killed, it somehow plays a part in Dooku turning to the dark side and becoming a Sith.

    Now the irony would be that if Dooku and Qui-Gon believed this and had some remote knowledge that the Sith still existed, is that Qui-Gon was killed by the Sith, Dooku becomes a Sith, and from a certain point again is telling the Jedi Council the Sith have control of the Senate in the person of Darth Sidious.

    But at this point, they really do not believe this claim.

    Darth Sin :cool:
  11. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999
    Let me add something else to my last thoughts.

    You have to consider the fact that Qui-Gon discovers the Chosen One, but also the first Jedi to encounter a Sith in over a thousand years. And he then confidently believes his attacker is a Sith.

    Then consider that Dooku was once Qui-Gon's master. Then it is Dooku that becomes a Sith.

    There is no question that Dooku and Qui-Gon have some relationship to the Sith, but it is only Dooku that becomes a Sith.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  12. D_Lowe

    D_Lowe Jedi Knight star 6

    Aug 15, 2002
    I actually think it is a big coinsidence that Qui-Gon was the first Jedi attacked by a Sith in 1000 years and lived to tell about it and have his former master become a Sith himself. I think Qui-Gon knew that Maul was a Sith because Qui-Gon is very perceptive. He knew that Obi-Wan was ready before the Jedi Council realized it. He also knew that Anakin was the chosen one when no other Jedi would of saw it. Qui-Gon just has unique abilities.
  13. The_Anakin_Wannabe

    The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 21, 2003
    Perhaps Qui-Gon is the Chosen One :p
  14. DarthAttorney

    DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 8, 2000
    If you have nothing serious to contribute to this discussion, please don't post here.

  15. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 2, 2000
    That was strict, Attorney!

    It is possible that Qui-Gon and Dooku knew something about the Sith that noone else(except maybe Sifo-Dyas) knew.
    The Jedi did possess a Sith holocron after all and it´s not unlikely that at least Dooku took great interest in studying it.
  16. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999
    It is somewhat difficult to believe that the Jedi believed that the Sith were extinct given that they adhered to the "rule of two".

    Yoda said "Hard to see the dark side is" and said of the Sith, "Only two there are, a Master and an Apprentice, no more, no less"

    From Yoda's words, it does seem he necessarily believed the Sith were extinct, but rather that their committment to only having two Sith at one time would give them the ability to survive, and add the nature of the dark side to be able to cloud things, even from the Jedi; they would be able to continue.

    It is very probable that Dooku and Qui-Gon knew this as well, and never believed the Sith were extinct, but merely hiding and waiting for a time to reveal themselves.

    And it is very likely that these two also had a better understanding of the prophecy of the Chosen One balancing the Force, at the least Qui-Gon did.

    I think it also interesting that Qui-Gon discovers the Chosen One, is attacked and killed by the Sith. And it is he that adamantly requests that Obi-Wan train him.

    Could Qui-Gon have seen just before he died that the Chosen One has to destroy the Sith in order for the Force to be balanced?

    Lastly, I have always found quite interesting also that Dooku knowingly or unknowingly says to Obi-Wan,

    "Join me, and together we can destroy the Sith"

    Dooku speaks out of his mouth what only the Chosen One is to do to fulfill the prophecy in balancing the Force, and this is even more astounding because he himself is a Sith.

    Dooku actually speaks his own end in being a Sith. This is on of the main reasons I believe Anakin will kill Dooku. This will be the first Sith that Anakin kills on his way to destroying the Sith, although he himself will become one, help destroy the Jedi order, and then eventually be saved by his son and then kill the Emperor.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  17. JHC_JEDI

    JHC_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 21, 2002
    When Qui-Gon told the council that he had found the chosen one as well as that he was just attacked by a Sith warrior, they were probably a bit overwhelmed. Their age old enemy had just showed up, at the exact time an ancient Jedi prophecy began to take shape. Actually, I think they were correct in not taking his story at face value as soon as he told it. The council didn't reject his claim out of hand, they simply needed more information.

    When Qui-Gon told them he was attacked by a Sith, the council reacted by sort of rolling their eyes, and thinking "Oh boy, old Qui-Gon's got another crazy story". Nothing in that reaction leads me to believe that he had mentioned the Sith previously to the council.

    When something untoward happens, the council interviews the Jedi most closely involved in the incident, then collects more information on the incident before acting on it. They did this in the case of Qui-Gon being attacked by Maul, and the claim of Anakin being the chosen one. The whole detective plot in AOTC was showing how the council operates. They get a lead, seek out information confirming their suspicions and form a plan of action.

    If Qui-Gon had prior knowledge of the Sith it is my contention that he would have addressed the council regarding this. Everything we've seen of Qui-Gon shows that while he may be a rebel, and not act in the way the council would like, he still respects the council, and would not hide information from them. Had this been in his personality, he would have kept his suspicions of Anakin=Chosen One to himself, and simply requested that he be trained due to his high midi-chlorian count.

    If he had come to the council with a claim that the sith were still in existance, or in hiding, or whatever, he would have presented his reasoning to the council. His initial reasoning, coupled with his attack on Tatooine would have led the council to act.

    The council was a very bureaucratic system, they were slow to act on things, but when they did act they did so decicively. Once they had the evidence that Dooku was planning to attack the republic, the Jedi went to Geonosis to fight, and Yoda took control of the clone army on the other side of the galaxy, a pretty decicive action.

    I don't think the characterization of both Qui-Gon and the Council that we've seen mesh with the theory put forth.
  18. Obi-Zon_Genobi

    Obi-Zon_Genobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Sep 28, 2002
    I too think that Qui-Gon Jinn respects the council too much to hide information from them because being a Jedi that is skilled and wise enough to be on the council if he wasn't so rebellious he'd know that the best thing for the Jedi is to share the information with the council. I also think the fact that his master going to the darkside of the force and becoming a Sith Lord is a coincidence.
  19. vw_jedi

    vw_jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 18, 2002
    One quick point to interject. In TPM, although Qui-Gon senses "an unusual amount of fear for a trade negotiation," isn't it really Obi Wan who senses something amiss? He is the one who senses something bigger. Qui-Gon actually admonishes him for not paying mind to "the living force." It would seem to me that Obi Wan had a jump on not only Qui-Gon, but the entire council in sensing the Sith.

  20. JHC_JEDI

    JHC_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 21, 2002
    True, Obi Wan knew something bigger was going on, but really had no idea what it was.

    Qui-Gon's focus on the present seems to indicate that he wouldn't be very likely to detect a lingering menace that would only grow in the future.

    But maybe I'm reading too much into that.
  21. Qui-Gon-Was-Right

    Qui-Gon-Was-Right Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 10, 2002
    As my screen name implies, Qui-Gon was right about everything: Anakin being the chosen one and Maul being a sith lord. However, I don't think he knew about these things beforehand. Since Qui-Gon is attuned to the living force, he is quite skilled at recognizing things when they occur, but not neccesarily before they occur. As soon as he believed he encountered a sith, he immediately informed the Jedi council.
  22. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 23, 2000
    "Qui-Gon's focus on the present seems to indicate that he wouldn't be very likely to detect a ligering menace that would only grow in the future."

    Not true because when he told Queen Amidala(actually, it's her decoy Sabe),"There is something else behind all this, your highness. There's no logic in the Federation's move here. My feelings tell me they will destroy you!", that indicated that he has sensed what Obi-wan was telling him earlier and realised that there is something or someone influencing the Trade Federation's motives for taking over Naboo.

    Add this to being recently attacked by Darth Maul and Qui-Gon's certainty that he's a Sith would also lead him to the conclusion that the Sith are behind the Trade Federation's hostile takeover of Naboo.

    "But that was Qui-Gon Jinn's biggest flaw, the inability to deal with anything outside of the immediate. He too attuned to the Living Force at the expense of the Unifying Force(as mentioned in the TPM novelization)."

    Just as the flaws of the council and the jedi order as a whole are the opposite.

    They are too focused on the future that they don't have clue of what's happening at the moment until it's too late. Yoda realises this error and is going by a different philosophy which is why he criticizes Luke about this particular issue by saying, "This one, a long time have I watched. All of his life as he looked away to the future; to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was and what he was doing."

    It's a pity that the Jedi will never have the opportunity to change their ways since Vader will destroy them all.
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